Extension, formal consultation started

Bakerloo Line extension consultation now open at Consultation Link

In essence - E&C to Hayes via Old Kent Rd or Camberwell then Lewisham, Catford, Beckenham Junction / Hayes.

Just signed it. I think it is a good idea.

The case for extending the Bakerloo (as opposed to building a new line altogether) has always rested on the fact that there is some spare capacity in the peaks. The further it is extended, obviously, the more that spare capacity is exhausted. What is not stated in the documentation that I have seen is where that balance is tipped. Without figures, it's difficult to predict, but given the scale of redevelopment south and east of E&C, there must be a serious question as to whether an extended Bakerloo could cope with the extra traffic beyond Lewisham/Catford, even after its upgrade.

.....and how many would change at Lewisham for CX and Cannon Street


Camberwell Thameslink might open on that timescale too. In any case, the point where the SLL meets the OKR is right at the far end of the latter, and would do little to help the Bricklayers Arms/Albany Park area which is in the middle of the transport desert.

Yes, there's that Lewisham interchange as well.

In an ideal world, they would cut across from Old Kent Road 1.25 or 1.33 (ie after 1, but well before 2) to Camberwell and give us bread and butter and jam. After or around about the Bricklayer's Arms interchange?

I wonder what the cost difference on the proposed OKR and that amalgamation of the two would be? Going purely from the map, it appears to need slightly less railway and I assume none of the proposal for OKR is using existing NR lines?

It may be, this from the TfL consultation page in the link tells us more about the official line on needed(my font):

London is growing and its population is expected to exceed 10 million by 2030. This will create more demand for public transport across London. Whilst we are already investing billions of pounds, further investment is required.

Growth in southeast London is forecasted in areas such as Lewisham, Catford, New Cross and the Old Kent Road. It will also occur in parts of outer London such as Bromley.

In southeast London, public transport is also crowded in places and many of the roads are congested. Predicted population growth will further increase the pressure on the area’s rail and road networks.

To address these issues, we are considering options for extending the Bakerloo line into southeast London from its current end point at Elephant & Castle.


So, it appears to be up for consultation on the basis of future predicted population growth as much as anything.

As to how likely-well, note the map shows DLR already at Lewisham and ELL etc at New Cross Gate, so if it does start, watch it end at one of those two.

Surely also seeing as one end also shares with NR, the fast London Bridge service avoiding Lewisham could continue to serve the Hayes Line as well as

Why would passengers change at Lewisham to get to Charing Cross when the Bakerloo Line goes to Charing Cross.

As far as I can see if they are going to extend the Bakerloo Line as far as Lewisham. They may as well take it all the way down the Hayes Line.

Before we all get carried away I would point out the "small print", the bit where TfL say that this would be paid for by property developers splashing out to bring the Bakerloo to their new developments, similar to the Northern Line extension to Battersea. The obvious difference in this case is that the developers approached TfL for an extension to Battersea but here we have TfL saying they'll extend the Bakerloo if someone is prepared to pay for it.

The extension won't be completed until after the replacement of the 1972ts with the new driverless trains, they're not going to open it with brand new coloured light signals and tripcocks that would be redundant in a few years so the estimated opening in 2030 fits. My usual question is where will the trains go, at the moment there's only room for about a dozen trains at London Road (please correct me if I'm wrong), about half a dozen at Queen's Park with the all the rest up at Stonebridge Park, they're not ideally placed to serve an extension south. Anyone know of any spare depot space on the proposed route?

It'd be about five miles from Lewisham to E&C, another 7 miles to Hayes so roughly 12 miles total which is nearly the current length of 14.4miles. Just had a look on Google Earth and I don't see any obvious sidings or depots on the route, a rather nice large inviting golf course that says "Dig me up"....

<badidea>They could always share with the LO at New Cross Gate</badidea>

Currently 10 trains start from London Road, but I don't know what maximum capacity is. It is a bit tiddly. The carto metro map does indeed show a dozen roads.

Queen's Park south sheds can take four trains and there would be space, conceivably, for six more trains if all four north shed roads and both platforms were used. Currently, because of maintenance, trains are using 21, 22 and 23 roads (north shed roads). However, 21 road is left clear Monday night, 22 road on Tuesday and 23 road on Wednesday with the displaced train stabled in platform 3. Seven trains, then, from Queen's Park at the moment. I would say eight would be very doable - stabling on 24 road would be preferable to stabling in the platform - but 10 would be a nuisance.

The only one you're really forgetting is Elephant, which has 2 sidings. 3 trains stable at Elephant, with two in the sidings and one in a platform (both can be used), or 2 in the platforms and 1 in a siding (again either). This juggling about is "in order to allow track inspections, cleaning and litter clearance to take place at Elephant & Castle."

Mind you, I'm not sure the NTfL (or whatever they're calling it) could make use of all this space anyway, it might be too long, so upgrades and extensions may well be needed as it is.

Edit: Of course, the sidings at Elephant would presumably end up as the running lines for the extension (isn't that how they came to be in the first place) - so would be of no use in the future. For the time being, though, it's 12 from Stonebridge, 7 from Queen's Park, 10 from London Road and 3 from Elephant.

There is room for an expansion of Stonebridge Park Depot and a couple of abandoned roads at London Road. I don't know if this will be enough though. It also looks like there are plans to build over London Road Depot See here as has happened at White City and due to happen at Lillie Bridge, I suspect if this happens additional roads will be squeezed in.