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Post by melikepie on Sept 29, 2014 18:12:18 GMT
Just a quick question, when Crossrail takes over the Heathrow Connect services will Oyster be allowed on that route through to Heathrow or will it be the same as it is currently?
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Heathrow
Sept 29, 2014 18:15:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by crusty54 on Sept 29, 2014 18:15:23 GMT
Certainly should be included.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 26, 2014 13:14:30 GMT
Just a quick question, when Crossrail takes over the Heathrow Connect services will Oyster be allowed on that route through to Heathrow or will it be the same as it is currently? I don't think anyone knows for certain. It's desirable certainly. There were plans for Oyster to be extended to H'row Connect a few years ago but it fell through for some unspecified reason. I imagine Heathrow Express don't want gates which means you'd need validators or some other way of ensuring Oyster cards can be validated. I understand that even under Crossrail operation the premium fare into Heathrow will remain because it is required by BAA to pay off the debt for constructing the link in the first place.
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Post by 315 on Oct 27, 2014 0:09:05 GMT
With introduction of Crossrail, HEx are no longer allowed to own and operate the stations. The tunnels and stations now fall under the 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' umbrella (formally BAA) and HEx are now the tenants (on paper). As for Oyster, Crossrail are not sure how this is going to be managed yet as gates will not be installed. There will also be no staff on board their trains for revenue protection. Watch this space! Just a quick question, when Crossrail takes over the Heathrow Connect services will Oyster be allowed on that route through to Heathrow or will it be the same as it is currently? I don't think anyone knows for certain. It's desirable certainly. There were plans for Oyster to be extended to H'row Connect a few years ago but it fell through for some unspecified reason. I imagine Heathrow Express don't want gates which means you'd need validators or some other way of ensuring Oyster cards can be validated. I understand that even under Crossrail operation the premium fare into Heathrow will remain because it is required by BAA to pay off the debt for constructing the link in the first place.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 27, 2014 14:53:05 GMT
With introduction of Crossrail, HEx are no longer allowed to own and operate the stations. The tunnels and stations now fall under the 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' umbrella (formally BAA) and HEx are now the tenants (on paper). As for Oyster, Crossrail are not sure how this is going to be managed yet as gates will not be installed. There will also be no staff on board their trains for revenue protection. Watch this space! Is the ownership change something to do with ensuring "non discriminatory" access to Heathrow to operators other than HEX? I can see that getting Oyster to work at Heathrow (HEX) stations (for want of a better name) is not necessarily straightforward but validators are the obvious fall back. Whether the system overall can cope with the concept of yet more "zones" given the desire to expand Oyster to Gatwick and various other places on the TGSN network and to Dartford and Swanley remains to be seen. Is the reference to revenue protection just for train running in to Heathrow or more generally? I would be genuinely surprised if MTR had NO revenue inspectors at all given the spread of Crossrail and mix of areas being served. There will be fare evasion on its services - that inescapable in London plus there are umpteen open interchanges with other lines / routes.
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Post by 315 on Oct 29, 2014 13:14:56 GMT
With introduction of Crossrail, HEx are no longer allowed to own and operate the stations. The tunnels and stations now fall under the 'Heathrow Airport Holdings' umbrella (formally BAA) and HEx are now the tenants (on paper). As for Oyster, Crossrail are not sure how this is going to be managed yet as gates will not be installed. There will also be no staff on board their trains for revenue protection. Watch this space! Is the ownership change something to do with ensuring "non discriminatory" access to Heathrow to operators other than HEX? I can see that getting Oyster to work at Heathrow (HEX) stations (for want of a better name) is not necessarily straightforward but validators are the obvious fall back. Whether the system overall can cope with the concept of yet more "zones" given the desire to expand Oyster to Gatwick and various other places on the TGSN network and to Dartford and Swanley remains to be seen. Is the reference to revenue protection just for train running in to Heathrow or more generally? I would be genuinely surprised if MTR had NO revenue inspectors at all given the spread of Crossrail and mix of areas being served. There will be fare evasion on its services - that inescapable in London plus there are umpteen open interchanges with other lines / routes. Yes, that's correct. Hex cannot own the infrastructure and operate their own services into it. As for revenue protection, I was referring to trains running into Heathrow. Hex are restructuring and have changed their safety case whereby from November, trains can run into the tunnels without onboard staff. A new Customer Host role with continue collecting revenue onboard, however should there be a requirement to de-train in the tunnels, the driver will take the lead. Prior to this the onboard staff would assist with evacuating Hex an HeC trains. HEx and Hec drivers will also self-dispatch from 2015 at Heathrow stations once DOO equipment is installed.
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Post by phil on Oct 30, 2014 23:08:02 GMT
Is the ownership change something to do with ensuring "non discriminatory" access to Heathrow to operators other than HEX? I can see that getting Oyster to work at Heathrow (HEX) stations (for want of a better name) is not necessarily straightforward but validators are the obvious fall back. Whether the system overall can cope with the concept of yet more "zones" given the desire to expand Oyster to Gatwick and various other places on the TGSN network and to Dartford and Swanley remains to be seen. Is the reference to revenue protection just for train running in to Heathrow or more generally? I would be genuinely surprised if MTR had NO revenue inspectors at all given the spread of Crossrail and mix of areas being served. There will be fare evasion on its services - that inescapable in London plus there are umpteen open interchanges with other lines / routes. Yes, that's correct. Hex cannot own the infrastructure and operate their own services into it. Are you sure? (though your screen name does suggest so) I was under the impression that thanks to the Government of the day allowing BAA to effectively "buy" the "state's" portion of the project from British Rail (to make Railway privatisation simpler) the railway from Airport junction into Heathrow is not part of our national railway system. Effectively it is a "private railway" and has a similar status when it comes to EU directives as the various "private" Heritage railways scattered all over the UK. As a result EU directives requiring financial separation of infrastructure and service provision don't apply - so there is no legal reason why Heathrow Airport Holdings cannot transfer ownership plus all responsibility for infrastructure operation to its HEX subsidiary and get Crossrail to pay HEX for access to the infrastructure. EU rules about open access also don't apply to "private" railways and as I believe the branch is not offically classed as part of the national railway system (having a connection or even through running onto it doesn't make any difference - e.g. the NYMR running on to Whitby hasn't changed the staus of the NYMR) so HEX has no fundamental obligation under EU law to accept Crossrail trains in the first place. Furthermore as train services over the branch to Heathrow be they HEX trains from Paddington or Heathrow Connect for the portion of the journey between Hayes and the airport are not part of our franchised / publicly subsidised services railway network, I believe HAH have the exclusive right to set the fares policy as they wish. Even the provision of through ticketing to the rest of the UK rail network is not an absolute legal requirement when you get down to the legal fundamentals covering the operation of the airport branch / HEX (or Heathrow Connect between Hayes and the airport). The reason through ticketing exists is solely due to comercial agreements signed between HAH / HEX and the other train opperators in ATOC because such a deal is beneficial to both sides - (the same applies to Eurostar, Grand central and Hull trains). Thus I suspect the issue of Oyster aceptance & ticket surcharges cannot be enforced by trying 'legal' means, rather TfL and HAH have to come to a mutually acceptable of agreement over the issue - for example TfL may agree to pay slightly higher track access charges* to HAH (via HEX) for use of the infrastructure than would otherwise be the case in exchange for Oyster acceptance. Now naturally HAH are not stupid - having Crossrail coming to the airport does bring them significant advantages with direct links to the city and Canary Wharf being the obvious ones, plus of course improving their "green" credentials so its not as if TfL are entering the negotiations from a position of weekness. Both sides have things they want from each other and I have no doubt they are fully awere of the public and political backlash if a deal is not done so I confidently expect the issue will be resolved before Crossrail starts operations to the airport. What is certian however is that because it has to be resolved on the basis of a mutually satisfactory deal being struck - the deliberations themselves will be confidential and the exact specifics will take some time to be released into the public arena. Thus we get the situation where nobody within TfL can say anything definite on the subject - something that is unlikely to change in the near future. * between Royal Oak & Reading plus between Stratford and Shenfield, TfL will be paying track access charges to Network Rail. Its only the core section of Crossrail which TfL own outright
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Post by snoggle on Oct 31, 2014 10:18:19 GMT
I was under the impression that thanks to the Government of the day allowing BAA to effectively "buy" the "state's" portion of the project from British Rail (to make Railway privatisation simpler) the railway from Airport junction into Heathrow is not part of our national railway system. Effectively it is a "private railway" and has a similar status when it comes to EU directives as the various "private" Heritage railways scattered all over the UK. As a result EU directives requiring financial separation of infrastructure and service provision don't apply - so there is no legal reason why Heathrow Airport Holdings cannot transfer ownership plus all responsibility for infrastructure operation to its HEX subsidiary and get Crossrail to pay HEX for access to the infrastructure. EU rules about open access also don't apply to "private" railways and as I believe the branch is not offically classed as part of the national railway system (having a connection or even through running onto it doesn't make any difference - e.g. the NYMR running on to Whitby hasn't changed the staus of the NYMR) so HEX has no fundamental obligation under EU law to accept Crossrail trains in the first place. Furthermore as train services over the branch to Heathrow be they HEX trains from Paddington or Heathrow Connect for the portion of the journey between Hayes and the airport are not part of our franchised / publicly subsidised services railway network, I believe HAH have the exclusive right to set the fares policy as they wish. Even the provision of through ticketing to the rest of the UK rail network is not an absolute legal requirement when you get down to the legal fundamentals covering the operation of the airport branch / HEX (or Heathrow Connect between Hayes and the airport). The reason through ticketing exists is solely due to comercial agreements signed between HAH / HEX and the other train opperators in ATOC because such a deal is beneficial to both sides - (the same applies to Eurostar, Grand central and Hull trains). Thus I suspect the issue of Oyster aceptance & ticket surcharges cannot be enforced by trying 'legal' means, rather TfL and HAH have to come to a mutually acceptable of agreement over the issue - for example TfL may agree to pay slightly higher track access charges* to HAH (via HEX) for use of the infrastructure than would otherwise be the case in exchange for Oyster acceptance. Now naturally HAH are not stupid - having Crossrail coming to the airport does bring them significant advantages with direct links to the city and Canary Wharf being the obvious ones, plus of course improving their "green" credentials so its not as if TfL are entering the negotiations from a position of weekness. Both sides have things they want from each other and I have no doubt they are fully awere of the public and political backlash if a deal is not done so I confidently expect the issue will be resolved before Crossrail starts operations to the airport. What is certian however is that because it has to be resolved on the basis of a mutually satisfactory deal being struck - the deliberations themselves will be confidential and the exact specifics will take some time to be released into the public arena. Thus we get the situation where nobody within TfL can say anything definite on the subject - something that is unlikely to change in the near future. * between Royal Oak & Reading plus between Stratford and Shenfield, TfL will be paying track access charges to Network Rail. Its only the core section of Crossrail which TfL own outright Two comments. Firstly a Crossrail / HAL agreement was signed many years ago that sets out the basis of access to Heathrow via the tunnels. I've also seen another document that confirms the continuation of the current premium fare arrangement. I've never been able to rediscover the link to this second document but the first one is easily found on the web. Secondly I suspect you're right about some form of agreement being reached re Oyster. You are also correct that HEX have a "shopping list" of ticketing things they'd like. Whether they align with what TfL is interested in I cannot say. As with every negotiation it will depend on whether there is a mutually acceptable solution even though you're right about the public perception issue if Oyster / CPCs were NOT to be accepted for travel into the Airport for some reason.
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Post by mattdickinson on Oct 31, 2014 19:51:52 GMT
Just a quick question, when Crossrail takes over the Heathrow Connect services will Oyster be allowed on that route through to Heathrow or will it be the same as it is currently? I don't think anyone knows for certain. It's desirable certainly. There were plans for Oyster to be extended to H'row Connect a few years ago but it fell through for some unspecified reason. I imagine Heathrow Express don't want gates which means you'd need validators or some other way of ensuring Oyster cards can be validated. I understand that even under Crossrail operation the premium fare into Heathrow will remain because it is required by BAA to pay off the debt for constructing the link in the first place. Some details about those plans are at What Do They Know?. I think one of the main problems is that passengers with Travelcards will have no incentive to touch out at Heathrow (to pay the premium). Maybe the OEP will be resurrected...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 31, 2014 23:46:39 GMT
I think one of the main problems is that passengers with Travelcards will have no incentive to touch out at Heathrow (to pay the premium). Maybe the OEP will be resurrected... The OEP was one of the most confusing ideas ever conceived by a company (SWT, who else) more concerned with "protecting" revenue than attracting custom (or at least not frightening people away). Anyway, the solution to no barriers at Heathrow is simply to ensure that the fare charged for an unresolved journey is always greater than the maximum fare that can be charged (i.e Zone 9 to Zone 1 plus the premium) The unresolved journey charge was increased when zones wee extended to 9, and again when different NR/TfL fares were introduced. It can be set as high as you like - £50 if you want.
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Heathrow
Nov 1, 2014 1:25:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by mattdickinson on Nov 1, 2014 1:25:07 GMT
I think one of the main problems is that passengers with Travelcards will have no incentive to touch out at Heathrow (to pay the premium). Maybe the OEP will be resurrected... The OEP was one of the most confusing ideas ever conceived by a company (SWT, who else) more concerned with "protecting" revenue than attracting custom (or at least not frightening people away). Anyway, the solution to no barriers at Heathrow is simply to ensure that the fare charged for an unresolved journey is always greater than the maximum fare that can be charged (i.e Zone 9 to Zone 1 plus the premium) The unresolved journey charge was increased when zones wee extended to 9, and again when different NR/TfL fares were introduced. It can be set as high as you like - £50 if you want. When a Travelcard journey is started within its zones there is no entry charge and hence no unresolved journey charge, whatever its level. For example, a traveller with a Z1-5 Travelcard travelling from Paddington beyond Hayes and Harlington to Heathrow will not be charged an unresolved journey charge (but would be liable for a penalty at the moment.)
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