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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2014 23:22:44 GMT
I just had a few questions about when you drive in Coded Manual. I know it's common for trains to be driven into and out of sidings in Coded. Is this a requirement, or is it optional? Also, if it's required, I was wondering - *could* Auto drive into the sidings, if it was asked to? Also do you have to go in Coded when running through the siding onto the mainline (i.e. WOO - SOW via 21 rd, DEB - THB via 22 rd, NEP - BAR via the siding), or is that done in Auto usually. Thirdly, I know there're pretty much no codes in the depots (I think Hainault wash road has codes for at least some of its length, but, in general, there aren't any). Do you drive all the way to the depot in RM, or do you switch to RM at a certain point? Finally, just to clarify, what is the guidance on driving in Coded? I know there are all kinds of scenarios in which it can be necessary to go through in Coded, e.g. certain failures, ATO interrupts, first trains after bad weather (checking for obstructions), drunks on the platform, >1 consecutive station skip, the rain, leaves, I think I even remember reading that there was a certain BMB on the eastbound, approaching Bank where, if you let Auto start-up from there it'll SPAD the starter. I don't know if that's still true (was it ever?) But apart from these I remember the guidance being that you can go in Coded west of WHC and east of LES, if you want to, but I can't remember the times of day. Also I was just seeking general clarification, because it's not uncommon for me to see people driving to/from LEY in Coded (or so it appears from the platform) - although that could be for any other reason. Also, it's often said that you're meant to go in Coded on Sundays, but not everybody does it seems. So I was just wondering what the official line was. Ta  |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 14, 2014 8:18:18 GMT
Any move that requires a move past a shunt disc signal move has to be done in coded manual - there is no option for ATO. It is possible to enter the loop sidings at Woodford, Debden and Newbury Park in ATO.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 10:53:27 GMT
Going into Hainault and Ruislip depots you go coded up to stop boards/inlet shunt signals then proceed in RM apart from the wash road at Hainault where you go coded all the way into the North Neck (behind Grange Hill station). Going out of the depots all moves are in RM up to the outlet shunts then coded into the platform.
ATO only works on running lines.
We are instructed to work in coded west of WHC and east of LES on Sundays and bank holidays but if you need to go coded for training purposes or any other reason anywhere else or at any other time you have to clear it with the Line Controller. Wood Lane will occasionally instruct us to go coded for bad weather, for track inspections, etc. We went coded QUE to HOP WB during the Notting Hill Carnival because of the crowding on the platform at NHG and a few weeks ago we going coded between TCR and CHL because someone on HOL EB was threatening to throw themselves under a train.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 14, 2014 11:26:34 GMT
You often see drivers with the cab door open in hot weather on the open sections, meaning that they must be in coded manual. Do these drivers ask permission from control, or is it tolerated, even though according to the rules it isn't allowed?
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Sept 14, 2014 14:00:10 GMT
There is no rule to say you cant drive with the cab door open AFAIK. Regarding coded manual reversing moves, I was told by an I.OP that if you do some moves in ATO the train will often stop short of the pac and also lock up the points behind. So coded manual is required. There is one driver I know who refuses to use ATO and fremains in coded all the time! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 14:52:57 GMT
There is no rule to say you cant drive with the cab door open AFAIK. I don't think there is either, but you have to be in Coded to do so, no? There is one driver I know who refuses to use ATO and fremains in coded all the time! Even through the pipe? Well, either way, good for them! |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 14, 2014 17:10:34 GMT
It's quite hard by all accounts to drive in coded manual in the tunnels. Whenever I've been on a train in the tunnel section being driven in coded, it never seems to be quite as fast as ATO mode.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 14, 2014 17:15:05 GMT
There is no rule to say you cant drive with the cab door open AFAIK. Regarding coded manual reversing moves, I was told by an I.OP that if you do some moves in ATO the train will often stop short of the pac and also lock up the points behind. So coded manual is required. There is one driver I know who refuses to use ATO and fremains in coded all the time! If all the drivers, like the one you know, refused to use ATO, how would this affect the running of the line? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 17:48:51 GMT
It's quite hard by all accounts to drive in coded manual in the tunnels. Whenever I've been on a train in the tunnel section being driven in coded, it never seems to be quite as fast as ATO mode. That may be true, I couldn't say, but wasn't the line operated entirely under ATP for a good few years before ATO was brought it? Doesn't, of course, mean you're not correct about it being difficult and it's perfectly possible that 34 tph wouldn't have been practical. How can you tell if it's Coded or not, by the way - just out of interest. I happen to suspect that part of the problem is likely to be that you don't generally go through the pipe in Coded and so most people will be out of practise and so, naturally, you have to be a little bit more tentative. If you did it day in, day out, you'd probably get used to it and be able to anticipate the target speed changing (for PSRs and semi-autos that don't usually clear until you're close to them - that sort of thing) and all of that. I imagine you could get pretty slick. I guess the biggest problem I can imagine is seeing the BMBs - but surely with nice bright headlights like we're getting on the 95s and 96s these days you can solve that. Perhaps there are other problems I've simply not thought of. The ones in stations that are bolted to the tunnel wall must be pretty hard to see - I've always wondered: can you actually see them from the cab? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 17:50:58 GMT
There is no rule to say you cant drive with the cab door open AFAIK. Regarding coded manual reversing moves, I was told by an I.OP that if you do some moves in ATO the train will often stop short of the pac and also lock up the points behind. So coded manual is required. There is one driver I know who refuses to use ATO and fremains in coded all the time! If all the drivers, like the one you know, refused to use ATO, how would this affect the running of the line? In theory, I suspect it would negatively affect end-to-end running times and, therefore, overall capacity. In practice, I'd have to leave that up to someone who really knows what it's like driving in Coded - but I gather that's the logic behind encouraging people to use Auto in general. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 14, 2014 20:39:21 GMT
It's quite hard by all accounts to drive in coded manual in the tunnels. Whenever I've been on a train in the tunnel section being driven in coded, it never seems to be quite as fast as ATO mode. That may be true, I couldn't say, but wasn't the line operated entirely under ATP for a good few years before ATO was brought it? Doesn't, of course, mean you're not correct about it being difficult and it's perfectly possible that 34 tph wouldn't have been practical. How can you tell if it's Coded or not, by the way - just out of interest. I happen to suspect that part of the problem is likely to be that you don't generally go through the pipe in Coded and so most people will be out of practise and so, naturally, you have to be a little bit more tentative. If you did it day in, day out, you'd probably get used to it and be able to anticipate the target speed changing (for PSRs and semi-autos that don't usually clear until you're close to them - that sort of thing) and all of that. I imagine you could get pretty slick. I guess the biggest problem I can imagine is seeing the BMBs - but surely with nice bright headlights like we're getting on the 95s and 96s these days you can solve that. Perhaps there are other problems I've simply not thought of. The ones in stations that are bolted to the tunnel wall must be pretty hard to see - I've always wondered: can you actually see them from the cab? If you travel on the Central a lot in the front car, you get very used to the accelerating and braking profile of ATO. Although a driver in CM should theoretically be able to drive to the same profiles, in reality it isn't possible to do it exactly the same. Another way to tell is by sitting in the seats behind the druver's cab. In CM, you'll hear the chimes which indicate a chance in target speed. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 20:49:14 GMT
Another way to tell is by sitting in the seats behind the druver's cab. In CM, you'll hear the chimes which indicate a chance in target speed. Hehe! I've often tried, but I never manage to hear them, even when I know we're in Coded because the door's open, or I could see the train was being driven in Coded when it pulled into the platform (only provisional, of course, because it could have been taken out of Coded). Once or twice I've heard them over the PA, and you can sometimes hear announcements over the radio... |
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Sept 14, 2014 23:50:02 GMT
There is no rule to say you cant drive with the cab door open AFAIK. Regarding coded manual reversing moves, I was told by an I.OP that if you do some moves in ATO the train will often stop short of the pac and also lock up the points behind. So coded manual is required. There is one driver I know who refuses to use ATO and fremains in coded all the time! If all the drivers, like the one you know, refused to use ATO, how would this affect the running of the line? Quite badly I would imagine! When I was training a couple of years ago the I.OP asked me to contact the controller via train radio to inform him that we would be undertaking coded manual driving through the pipe. The contoller immediatly replied 'Dont lose too much time through the road or you will have to put it back in ATO' Even today some controllera turn a blind eye to lazy drivers in ATO on a sunday so to keep it on time! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 0:01:01 GMT
Hehe I reckon you could manage it hobbayne. I bet you'd be a lot smoother between Stratford and Mile End on the west as well...
...brake...brake...brake...brake...brake...
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 15, 2014 0:02:47 GMT
Quite badly I would imagine! When I was training a couple of years ago the I.OP asked me to contact the controller via train radio to inform him that we would be undertaking coded manual driving through the pipe. The contoller immediatly replied 'Dont lose too much time through the road or you will have to put it back in ATO' Even today some controllera turn a blind eye to lazy drivers in ATO on a sunday so to keep it on time! Whats wrong with being in ATO on a Sunday? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 0:11:01 GMT
Well you're kind of supposed to go Coded east of Leytonstone and west of White City on a Sunday to keep your eye in for whenever you need to do it (and, I suppose, so that if you decide - on a whim - that you want to do it, you don't then go and SPAD the starter at Loughton westbound 'cause you're out of practise  ). |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 9:52:58 GMT
Yes, we go Coded on Sundays (and Bank Holidays) to keep in practise. ATO won't work with cab door open so if it's a nice day we go Coded, we are supposed to get permission for Wood Lane although I suspect most of us don't and if we did Wood Lane would get very tired very quickly of having to answer all the calls. As for Coded in tunnels its no different from open section after dark, I had a train with ATO on the west end but none on the east, I had to go WER to EPP in Coded and arrived on time; Humans 1 Robots 0.
What really messes you up is trying to spot BMBs when the tunnel lights are on, in a dark tunnel your headlights pick them out but if the tunnel lights are on they are a lot harder to spot. There's one on the EB approach to LIS, by the crossover where the lights are always on and if there's a train in the platform that will be at zero codes so it's effectively a signal at danger. One reason part of our training is learning the route, miss that one and you've got yourself a SPAD.
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