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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 8, 2014 22:42:46 GMT
I was just reading an old article about how some trains overshoot the platforms or end up running away. Now whilst I can imagine this would could a few minor to moderate injuries at Bank, what would happen if a train overshot or ran away at the Waterloo end? Is the track set up to deal with that at all? For the purposes of this argument, the driver has been incapacitated.
If it has happened, when and what was the result?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 22:49:45 GMT
I think Waterloo has Moorgate control (aka TETS) for precisely that purpose. It's now my turn to talk out of my comfort zone, but I think there's flank protection too, judging by this image. If I'm right, the points would be set for the trap road (leading to the buffers off to the left in the immediate foreground) as a train approaches so that if it were to overrun despite the Moorgate control and the raised trainstop (raised for the fixed red light at the end of the platform), it would be diverted down there and not into harm's way. |
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 8, 2014 23:17:33 GMT
I think Waterloo has Moorgate control (aka TETS) for precisely that purpose. It's now my turn to talk out of my comfort zone, but I think there's flank protection too, judging by this image. If I'm right, the points would be set for the trap road (leading to the buffers off to the left in the immediate foreground) as a train approaches so that if it were to overrun despite the Moorgate control and the raised trainstop (raised for the fixed red light at the end of the platform), it would be diverted down there and not into harm's way. I see... I did not know if there was a bit of retarded track set up or if said train would continue into Waterloo depot and either be caught there or have an incident... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 23:22:45 GMT
It'd (as far as I can work out) be caught in the depot but I can't see how it could get that far. The one possibility I can think of is a T/Op slowing down sufficiently for the second Moorgate control trainstop but SPADing the fixed red light at the end of the platform if the shunt signal hasn't yet been cleared with a route for it. In this case I can't see how it would get very far, but it might just about be worth having the route set to the trap road, just in case. Signalling engineers like just in case, they're very good at just in case. It's why you have to go everywhere in Restricted Manual (absolute max 18 kph, motors cut out at 16) if you have an ATP failure on your train on the Central line, even though they have running signals telling you there's no train ahead  Just in case is good. It's a little bit bad for overall capacity, but it's good for safety. |
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 8, 2014 23:24:48 GMT
Fair enough
Thank you for the explanation
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Sept 10, 2014 21:25:06 GMT
The W&C was fitted with Moorgate style trainstops at Bank in the mid 1980s. I was one of the drivers booked on one Sunday to test the system.
There were no Moorgate trainstops fitted at Waterloo; the stop signal there with a trainstop should stop any errant train; the overlap between that signal and the end of the hidden sidings was deemed sufficient to stop the train. The trainstop would only lower when the shunt signal towards the depot was cleared, and that was only after the train had come to a stand in the down platform.
I don't know what the current arrangements are.
There was a runaway many years ago; in the days when they ran a single car outside the peaks, one ran away whilst going from Waterloo to Bank. the car reportedly see-sawed in the tunnel for ages before coming to a stand. The brake rigging had been disconnected in the works for repair. They never ran single cars after that.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 10, 2014 21:33:08 GMT
Had a look when I was passing through last night - there is a trap point (about half a car-length, leading to a substantial buffer stop) just beyond the arrival platform an the points were set for that, giving flank protection, until the previous train had cleared the reversing siding (No 3). Points then reversed and the train was signalled into the reversing siding.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 16, 2014 22:21:37 GMT
The W&C was fitted with Moorgate style trainstops at Bank in the mid 1980s. I was one of the drivers booked on one Sunday to test the system. It hasn't changed much (in the platforms at least). Those trainstops operated in a different way to their LU equivalents as they lowered as soon as the associated treadle was operated, rather than after a time delay. The only delay was the operating time of the trainstop. Today, as you approach the crossover there is a blind trainstop operated by a timing section, then a further three blind trainstops in platform 8 (two from BR days, the third added by LU and controlled by a timing section), and in platform 7 two blind trainstops as installed by BR operated by treadles with no timing section. At Waterloo there is one blind trainstop in the arrivals platform, added in LU days and controlled by a timing section as per a standard LU installation. In addition the route is always set for the overrun until the arrivals platform track circuit has been occupied for 30 seconds. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 16, 2014 22:25:59 GMT
Had a look when I was passing through last night - there is a trap point (about half a car-length, leading to a substantial buffer stop) just beyond the arrival platform an the points were set for that, giving flank protection, until the previous train had cleared the reversing siding (No 3). Points then reversed and the train was signalled into the reversing siding. I think you may have confused route numbers (as displayed on the signal) with road numbers. A '3' in the route indicator refers to the 3rd route from the left, which is to the reversing siding. This is siding no. 5 in the depot, the depot roads are numbered from right to left when standing on the platforms looking to the depot. No.1 road no longer exists, Nos. 2 & 3 are the depot shed roads, No. 4 road was removed in 2002, No.5 is the normal reversing road, Nos. 6 & 7 are stabling roads and on the far left is the un-numbered lift siding. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 27, 2014 2:09:56 GMT
For the purposes of this argument, the driver has been incapacitated. In that scenario the "deadman" would activate and apply the emergency brake. |
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 27, 2014 2:25:38 GMT
Even if the driver has been incapacitated in such a way that the deadman's handle is rendered useless?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2014 2:33:17 GMT
For the purposes of this argument, the driver has been incapacitated. In that scenario the "deadman" would activate and apply the emergency brake. Well in theory. Of course we know that in the past the deadman has failed to activate on a number of occasions where people have slumped on the controls or something like that, hence driver vigilance devices and other similar safety nets. That said, the modern deadman devices found on LU are very well designed and it should be difficult to circumvent them accidentally, but someone could still suffer - say - akinetic mutism (which was hypothesised as a potential cause of the Moorgate disaster). It would be a freak event but theoretically possible. |
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 27, 2014 2:52:17 GMT
True...
If I remember correctly, was there not a case on a tram on the south coast somewhere where the driver had an "incident" medically speaking and either derailed or crashed because they had rendered the handle InOp?
How do the handles on the modern stock work? Is it a pressure pad system or a weighted handle?
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Post by domh245 on Sept 27, 2014 8:31:00 GMT
On the 72/73 stock is a case of depressing the CTBC. On other stocks you have to twist the handle through 90 degrees
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Post by causton on Sept 27, 2014 21:51:59 GMT
True... If I remember correctly, was there not a case on a tram on the south coast somewhere where the driver had an "incident" medically speaking and either derailed or crashed because they had rendered the handle InOp? How do the handles on the modern stock work? Is it a pressure pad system or a weighted handle? Think it was Blackpool? And he snapped the handle off therefore couldn't stop? *googles* Edit: c/o the Railways Archive. I must spend all my life reading these reports, they fascinate me! |
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 27, 2014 23:01:32 GMT
No, this was on the south coast I know... I think it was one of those Toast Rack trams.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 28, 2014 8:34:43 GMT
In that scenario the "deadman" would activate and apply the emergency brake. Well in theory. Of course we know that in the past the deadman has failed to activate on a number of occasions where people have slumped on the controls or something like that, hence driver vigilance devices and other similar safety nets. That said, the modern deadman devices found on LU are very well designed and it should be difficult to circumvent them accidentally, but someone could still suffer - say - akinetic mutism (which was hypothesised as a potential cause of the Moorgate disaster). It would be a freak event but theoretically possible. There have been at least two instances I can recall where drivers have lost consciousness yet still retained sufficient muscle tone to continue operating the deadman. One on the Piccadilly line about ten years ago and the other on the Northern around 14 years ago. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 12:19:09 GMT
Well in theory. Of course we know that in the past the deadman has failed to activate on a number of occasions where people have slumped on the controls or something like that, hence driver vigilance devices and other similar safety nets. That said, the modern deadman devices found on LU are very well designed and it should be difficult to circumvent them accidentally, but someone could still suffer - say - akinetic mutism (which was hypothesised as a potential cause of the Moorgate disaster). It would be a freak event but theoretically possible. There have been at least two instances I can recall where drivers have lost consciousness yet still retained sufficient muscle tone to continue operating the deadman. One on the Piccadilly line about ten years ago and the other on the Northern around 14 years ago. Was that incident on the Northern line the same one that prompted the installing of a Runback Protection System? |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 28, 2014 21:47:15 GMT
Yes, that's the one.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 30, 2014 18:14:38 GMT
True... If I remember correctly, was there not a case on a tram on the south coast somewhere where the driver had an "incident" medically speaking and either derailed or crashed because they had rendered the handle InOp? How do the handles on the modern stock work? Is it a pressure pad system or a weighted handle? Think it was Blackpool? And he snapped the handle off therefore couldn't stop? *googles* Edit: c/o the Railways Archive. I must spend all my life reading these reports, they fascinate me! Ah yes, the applicable RAIB report is available on their site here. Rather than driver incapacitation which is what we were alluding to, this appears to be a case of a sloppy spigot. |
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Just in case is good. It's a little bit bad for overall capacity, but it's good for safety.
