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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 21:49:49 GMT
Curious question that may have been answered elsewhere (if so I apologise). I can't help noticing that the numbering of a lot of LU roads - particularly sidings - starts quite a long way from 1, often in the 20s. For example: Woodford sidings: 21 - 26 rd Loughton sidings: 21 rd and 27-36 rd Hainault depot: 21 - 31 rd and 41 - 71 rd (there may be others) Farringdon sidings: 23 - 25 rd Queens Park north and south sheds: 21 - 26 rd Ricky: 21 - 25 rd and 31 - 35 rd And yet: Edgware north sidings and Edgware station: 1 - 11 rd (south sidings 35 - 39 rd) Highgate depot: 1 - 11 rd Morden depot: 1 - 55 rd (a few gaps in between) Northfields depot: 1 - 29 rd Lillie Bridge depot: 1 - 15 rd Does anyone know - most relevantly - why many seem to start at 21 or in the 20s and, in general, not at one. But also, secondly, why there is the discrepancy - why do some start at 1 but not others? Thanks
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 22, 2014 22:16:38 GMT
It's a complicated story, and stems back to the 'New Works' period.
Essentially, there were blocks of numbers allocated to fans of sidings and roads. I've got a bit more to come, let me have a look for some examples. (xx.xx is yellow peril reference)
I can only (quickly) find my copies of the Northern Heights scale plans, but the fashion seems to have been at that time (late 30s) that the principal road [1] was numbered 21 and then the numbering went top to bottom on the scale plan for each block then left (up) to right (up) across the drawing in one continuous series.
By the time of the Central extensions (late 40s) the platform roads were not numbered and the sidings started at 21 working generally upwards on the scale plan, but increasing as you got away from the running lines - 48.21 is next to the 'pooter).
I've just found a 1937 (Golders resignalling 37.40) plan with the platform roads numbered 1 to 3, yet a 1940 plan for High Barnet (40.13) that has road numbers starting at 21.
I'm 99% sure that 2x numbers came in when numerical route indicators came into use, rather than separate signals - that's the difference between the '37 and '40 plans above. However East Finchley (39.23) is numbered the opposite way round - the numbers increase towards the running line.
There's a lot more to it than that, but I think that's the basics. It's certainly a question I've asked myself, but can't find the answer I wrote.
[1] NB and EB, I think. I have got a note of that somewhere. I was whichever road the signal numbers increased in the direction of travel.
I can have a look through the paper copies, if you like - 48.21 is the only paper one I have to hand as it's not yet made it into the huge box of perils. However, I'm off in the Middle Lands for a bit, so it won't be immediate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 22:48:53 GMT
Very interesting, that's for the info
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jul 23, 2014 5:17:35 GMT
Curious question that may have been answered elsewhere (if so I apologise). I can't help noticing that the numbering of a lot of LU roads - particularly sidings - starts quite a long way from 1, often in the 20s. For example: Woodford sidings: 21 - 26 rd Loughton sidings: 21 rd and 27-36 rd Hainault depot: 21 - 31 rd and 41 - 71 rd (there may be others) Farringdon sidings: 23 - 25 rd Queens Park north and south sheds: 21 - 26 rd Ricky: 21 - 25 rd and 31 - 35 rd And yet: Edgware north sidings and Edgware station: 1 - 11 rd (south sidings 35 - 39 rd) Highgate depot: 1 - 11 rd Morden depot: 1 - 55 rd (a few gaps in between) Northfields depot: 1 - 29 rd Lillie Bridge depot: 1 - 15 rd Does anyone know - most relevantly - why many seem to start at 21 or in the 20s and, in general, not at one. But also, secondly, why there is the discrepancy - why do some start at 1 but not others? Thanks I think Edgware pre-dates the convention of starting with 21 road - at Edgware 1-3 are the platforms, 4-7 are the sheds, and 8-11 are the open sidings alongside. The rest of the sidings date from the 1990s, although 35rd was the original shunt neck before the extra sidings were added, and I believe has always been numbered so. The platform roads at Morden are 41-43rds, with the reception roads being 44 & 45. I've always assumed this added at some point at the end of the original depot sequence. The Golders Green sequence is more confusing, as the various sidings in the station area duplicate road numbers within the depot. Furthermore, most of the sidings at Golders Green are also known by more than one number, as follows: 1-32 rds - Golders Green Depot. 21-23rds - Platforms 1&2,3&4,5 respectively. 24 & 25rds - also known as 1 & 2 sidings. 26 rd - depot reception siding also known as 4 siding. 27 rd - neck. 28 rd - neck for depot roads 1-5. I presume 1, 2 & 4 sidings were part of an earlier sequence, however the terms are still used today, and are sufficiently official to feature in line information books, and also on signage fixed to the sleepers - from memory I think the signage reads something like "26RD (4SDG)". It has always caused a certain amount of confusion as on balance most staff tend to refer to the older numbering, however it can cause issues as some drivers won't know what you mean if you tell them to pick up a train from 26rd, or would assume you want them to go to the depot (roads numbered 1 to 32), whilst others will look at you with confusion if you talk about 4 siding as although there's a 4 road in Golders Green Depot, this part of the depot is normally only used by Alstom staff! Since TBTC the 24-27rd numbering has become more official as this is quite clearly used on the signalling screens and plans, though even now many staff still refer to "4 siding" etc.
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 23, 2014 5:38:21 GMT
Could Edgware be down to the old link to Mill Hill East and Finchley Central?
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 23, 2014 7:06:25 GMT
Could Edgware be down to the old link to Mill Hill East and Finchley Central? Quite likely. I have a scale plan for the 'full' Edgware dating from 1938 and the numbering scheme is quite logical there - I have a vague idea that there was some partial renumbering there. The fan of sidings in the 3x series were originally going to be the sidings between the two main lines from the south, with the depot reversing sidings being 34 and 35, rather than starting at 35. The YP for the introduction of PMs in '67 uses single digits for the platforms - somewhere I've got the 1924 opening notice, if I can find it, I will report back.
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