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Post by 315 on Jul 14, 2014 8:14:13 GMT
I found this fascinating documentary on YouTube yesterday.
What great characters. Anyone know the guy working the lifts? Was that a role specific to Angel Station?
Thanks
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 4, 2014 18:37:47 GMT
Yes, we've discussed this programme in the past. I agree, very fascinating characters, not sure i'd want to work with them though! As for working in the lift, it's before my time at TFL, but I remember some stations had lift operators, Aldwych being another.
I don't know if the lift operators were Railmen (job title back then) and covered the lift as part of a roster or whether they were permanently working in the lift. Were the lifts staffed as they were unreliable or because of the depth of the lift shaft? Am thinking of Angel in particular.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 4, 2014 19:09:17 GMT
As Tubeboy says, this has been discussed before. I remember how bad rhe lift situation was at Angel. Of course, three years after the documentary was made, the new Angel station opened. Was it really 22 years ago . . .
The staff in the documentary clearly date from a different era. The Company Plan put paid to many of the old ways of working. But what a great snapshot of how things were.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 4, 2014 21:11:41 GMT
Yes, we've discussed this programme in the past. I agree, very fascinating characters, not sure i'd want to work with them though! As for working in the lift, it's before my time at TFL, but I remember some stations had lift operators, Aldwych being another. I don't know if the lift operators were Railmen (job title back then) and covered the lift as part of a roster or whether they were permanently working in the lift. Were the lifts staffed as they were unreliable or because of the depth of the lift shaft? Am thinking of Angel in particular. From what I remember c 1970-1989, most liftmen(and a few women)were rostered on ticket office duty and filled in on lift shifts to relieve when the rush hours were finished and the ticket windows were no longer under siege. I was a union official in another part of the public service at this stage, which is how I learnt that.
Aldwych was initially a special case, because there was no ticket office open from in the 1920's onwards, and tickets were sold or collected/examined in the lift. The 1930's wooden ticket-issuing desk, or at least most of it, stayed in the lifts to the very end. The advent of UTS meant, in 1988/9, that they installed a ticket machine there, single effort with multi-fares, and a pair of electronic ticket gates.
The intial lift installations across the Underground took place in the 1900-1910's, when many department stores also had them and not escalators, and duly-liveried servants of the company were there to reassure passengers/customers and provide a visible reminder of whose store/railway you were in/on. I believe the original liftmen were just that & nothing else, btw, just like in the stores.
The tendency post-war was to phase out liftmen once lifts were renewed or mostly replaced by escalators in any given site, cutting costs, of course. But I think Angel, like other Northern Line & some Piccadilly Line stations, clung on to them because the station refurbishment was delayed & the authorities were concerned the lack of any staff presence would be off-putting to tourists amongst others.
So, by default almost, that Angel was such a deep lift, was indeed a reason the lifts stayed staffed.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 4, 2014 21:29:23 GMT
I should add that delayed lift replacements did often mean unreliable existing lifts. Not sure now whether Angel was in that category, but the authorities in the 70's & early 80's were rather concentrating too much on the new Jubilee & DLR Lines for some people's liking, and that may be why the situation got so bad at certain stations.
I didn't use that station very often, but others who did said it was dingy and messy, so it could just be the lifts were unreliable, too.
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 4, 2014 21:48:37 GMT
Great posts, thank you Blackferret.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 5, 2014 9:11:40 GMT
Were the lifts staffed as they were unreliable or because of the depth of the lift shaft? . From what I remember c 1970-1989, most liftmen(and a few women)were rostered on ticket office duty ................ Aldwych was initially a special case, because there was no ticket office open from in the 1920's onwards, and tickets were sold or collected/examined in the lift. I recall in the late seventies tickets were inspected in the lift at places like Russell Square and Gloucester Road (Picc - there was a separate barrier line with a "passimeter" for the District/Circle station). Occasional "traps" were laid on the emergency stairs to plug the obvious loophole - much used by the local student populations at thoe stations. Aldwych was a special case, as tickets were also SOLD in the lift. Mention of lifts and emergency stairs reminds me I am currently reading this www.amazon.co.uk/Murder-Underground-British-Library-Classics/dp/0712357254/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top Written in 1934, and set in that year (despite the 1938 stock in the cover illustraton!) , I don't think I'm giving away much of the plot to say that the murder scene is the emergency stairs at Belsize Park station.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 5, 2014 9:38:39 GMT
From a little earlier, here's the Aldwych lift and ticket 'office' in full swing. From Capital Transport's The Aldywch Branch, old bean! And not a poodle-faker in site!
I wonder if the mods could use this for a competition? Sort of putting a witty caption to this cleary staged shot?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 5, 2014 11:45:49 GMT
From a little earlier, here's the Aldwych lift and ticket 'office' in full swing. From Capital Transport's The Aldywch Branch, old bean! And not a poodle-faker in site!
I wonder if the mods could use this for a competition? Sort of putting a witty caption to this cleary staged shot? Rick Wakeman performs a very early version of "The Six Wives Of Henry VIII" on a prototype Moog to an audience of one distinctly unimpressed Elliot Ness impersonator.
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 5, 2014 12:30:55 GMT
Yes, we've discussed this programme in the past. I agree, very fascinating characters, not sure i'd want to work with them though! As for working in the lift, it's before my time at TFL, but I remember some stations had lift operators, Aldwych being another. I don't know if the lift operators were Railmen (job title back then) and covered the lift as part of a roster or whether they were permanently working in the lift. Were the lifts staffed as they were unreliable or because of the depth of the lift shaft? Am thinking of Angel in particular. From what I remember c 1970-1989, most liftmen(and a few women)were rostered on ticket office duty and filled in on lift shifts to relieve when the rush hours were finished and the ticket windows were no longer under siege. I was a union official in another part of the public service at this stage, which is how I learnt that.
Aldwych was initially a special case, because there was no ticket office open from in the 1920's onwards, and tickets were sold or collected/examined in the lift. The 1930's wooden ticket-issuing desk, or at least most of it, stayed in the lifts to the very end. The advent of UTS meant, in 1988/9, that they installed a ticket machine there, single effort with multi-fares, and a pair of electronic ticket gates.
The intial lift installations across the Underground took place in the 1900-1910's, when many department stores also had them and not escalators, and duly-liveried servants of the company were there to reassure passengers/customers and provide a visible reminder of whose store/railway you were in/on. I believe the original liftmen were just that & nothing else, btw, just like in the stores.
The tendency post-war was to phase out liftmen once lifts were renewed or mostly replaced by escalators in any given site, cutting costs, of course. But I think Angel, like other Northern Line & some Piccadilly Line stations, clung on to them because the station refurbishment was delayed & the authorities were concerned the lack of any staff presence would be off-putting to tourists amongst others.
So, by default almost, that Angel was such a deep lift, was indeed a reason the lifts stayed staffed.There were two grades Railmen/women and Leading Railmen/women, Railmen/women carried out general duties while Leading Railmen/women carried out ticket barrier duties I understand way out barriers were the most popular. Lifts could be controlled either by car control (inside of lift) and landing control (outside) I am almost sure that lifts can still be worked like this. Leading Railmen/women could also be used to cover general duties when there was no barrier work.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 12:47:30 GMT
I am almost sure that lifts can still be worked like this. The lifts at Russell Square, with the refurbishment work, are regularly operated from the landing in the peaks, I can tell you that
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 5, 2014 13:41:48 GMT
Yes, the new lifts as well as the old can be put into staff control.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 5, 2014 14:41:33 GMT
The lifts at Russell Square, with the refurbishment work, are regularly operated from the landing in the peaks, I can tell you that Ditto Covent Garden.
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 5, 2014 15:54:31 GMT
Yes, the new lifts as well as the old can be put into staff control. yeah i saw staff control - in MIP lifts (step free lifts) have facility to have control on lifts also firemen controls as well in 2000 or 1999 - i went in north Greenwich lift with staff - he turned on via key on panel on outside then he controlled inside of lift the recent photo by Covent garden twitter showed the new lifts in russell square was in staff control because sign above doors was showing it
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Post by CSLR on Aug 5, 2014 16:56:08 GMT
The intial lift installations across the Underground took place in the 1900-1910's Sure, but do not forget what started it. The C&SLR had lifts at all of its stations when it opened 10 years earlier in 1890. The lifts were almost as big a novelty at that time as the electric railway and there was even a press report on how the company had taken on a responsibility for transporting passengers vertically as well as horizontally. There are many interesting points about those early hydraulic lifts, but here are three to keep you going:- 1. At the terminal stations the lower level was at platform level, but at the intermediate stations the lifts descended to a landing from which passengers passed up or down to the platforms via inclined passages...a very early example of the Underground catering for less able passengers. 2. The exception to this rule was at Borough, where the lift descended to a rather large passage that led straight onto one of the platforms (the other platform being accessed by a narrow, almost concealed staircase). Until the relatively recent installation of automatic lifts at Borough, you could still see how the side wall at the bottom of the lift shaft was designed to be unbolted and removed. This design seems to have been part of the original plan to get the cable operated cars onto the railway as there would have been no surface depot and therefore no other means of access. The layout partly served its purpose as it did allow the first electric locomotive and experimental carriages to be sent down into the tunnels before there was any connection to the surface at Stockwell. 3. At the start of the first world war, women were forbidden to drive the trains or lifts on the C&SLR. As the war progressed they were eventually allowed to operate the lifts and open the gates on the carriages, but not to drive the trains. I think that I am off topic. Sorry!
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Post by programmes1 on Aug 5, 2014 17:25:19 GMT
The intial lift installations across the Underground took place in the 1900-1910's Sure, but do not forget what started it. The C&SLR had lifts at all of its stations when it opened 10 years earlier in 1890. The lifts were almost as big a novelty at that time as the electric railway and there was even a press report on how the company had taken on a responsibility for transporting passengers vertically as well as horizontally. There are many interesting points about those early hydraulic lifts, but here are three to keep you going:- 1. At the terminal stations the lower level was at platform level, but at the intermediate stations the lifts descended to a landing from which passengers passed up or down to the platforms via inclined passages...a very early example of the Underground catering for less able passengers. 2. The exception to this rule was at Borough, where the lift descended to a rather large passage that led straight onto one of the platforms (the other platform being accessed by a narrow, almost concealed staircase). Until the relatively recent installation of automatic lifts at Borough, you could still see how the side wall at the bottom of the lift shaft was designed to be unbolted and removed. This design seems to have been part of the original plan to get the cable operated cars onto the railway as there would have been no surface depot and therefore no other means of access. The layout partly served its purpose as it did allow the first electric locomotive and experimental carriages to be sent down into the tunnels before there was any connection to the surface at Stockwell. 3. At the start of the first world war, women were forbidden to drive the trains or lifts on the C&SLR. As the war progressed they were eventually allowed to operate the lifts and open the gates on the carriages, but not to drive the trains. I think that I am off topic. Sorry! I think you have misquoted The initial lift installations across the Underground took place in the 1900-1910's that was theblackferret who said that.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 5, 2014 17:53:28 GMT
I think you have misquoted...that was theblackferret who said that. I think that I have got a little rusty at this. Why does the Tippex not work?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 5, 2014 18:55:48 GMT
Hi
Yes, it was me.
And I apologise for forgetting the CSLR, especially as Angel, the subject of the thread, was opened by CSLR, before it became the Northern Line.
So you are in fact in no way off topic!
The majority certainly were installed when I said, because they were the 3 Yerkes' lines, but CSLR definitely led the way, which is no mean feat when we remember the actual railway was initially designed to be cable-hauled & not electrically run. It must have taken a huge leap of faith to switch, when all they had to demonstrate the possibilities of electricity was Magnus Volk's still-extant line at Brighton.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Aug 5, 2014 21:19:21 GMT
Just to add my two pennoth. I use to be a Station Supervisor at Goodge Street. I can confirm that the lifts would operate in landing control during the peaks the rest of the time automatically. We would occasionally run them in car control. They could also be operated in engineer mode where the lift engineer could operate the lift from on top of the lift car, This for obvious reason would over rule the other operating modes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 23:36:20 GMT
2. The exception to this rule was at Borough, where the lift descended to a rather large passage that led straight onto one of the platforms (the other platform being accessed by a narrow, almost concealed staircase). Until the relatively recent installation of automatic lifts at Borough, you could still see how the side wall at the bottom of the lift shaft was designed to be unbolted and removed. This design seems to have been part of the original plan to get the cable operated cars onto the railway as there would have been no surface depot and therefore no other means of access. The layout partly served its purpose as it did allow the first electric locomotive and experimental carriages to be sent down into the tunnels before there was any connection to the surface at Stockwell. To illustrate CSLR's point about the large passage at Borough, here is said passage, as seen in 1990, after the introduction of modern lifts.
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Post by CSLR on Aug 6, 2014 6:52:27 GMT
To illustrate CSLR's point about the large passage at Borough, here is said passage, as seen in 1990, after the introduction of modern lifts. Thanks David. That illustrates the point perfectly. The curved wall in the background, with modern horizontally striped tiles, is the side wall to the lifts. This was originally a series of metal plates that could be removed to allow anything that had been lowered down the lift shaft to be moved along the passage towards the camera and on to the northbound line. The removable plates - which I always thought made the lower level look unfinished - remained in place and visible until the lifts were refurbished. It is this passage that the first locomotive and experimental carriages passed through when they were placed on the line for test running in 1889. The handrail in the foreground is on a bridge that crosses over and cuts through the roof of the southbound platform tunnel. Passengers exiting the lifts on the bottom landing are faced with this large passage which was designed to lead directly onto the northbound platform specifically for equipment access purposes. By contrast, the entrance to the southbound platform is an almost hidden gap in the wall, just to the right of the enamel line diagram. That reverse-facing sign is essential, as many passengers unfamiliar with the station naturally follow the main passage onto the northbound platform and then have to back-track to find the southbound line.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 6, 2014 8:33:27 GMT
Is access to the new Angel station still possible from the old? I'm assuming the old spiral staircase and lower passageways are still in situ. The stairs down to what is now the southbound platform were removed, but is there still some form of staircase behind the door at the south end of the southbound platform?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 6, 2014 10:13:28 GMT
'Is the World round or flat'?
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 6, 2014 10:24:28 GMT
'Is the World round or flat'? Neither
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 6, 2014 10:47:42 GMT
I'm quoting the employee in the film Jtuthill.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 6, 2014 12:25:53 GMT
I'm quoting the employee in the film Jtuthill. Now the station has moved its entrance, sadly no more philosophical debates as you rise to the surface
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 6, 2014 18:04:22 GMT
Indeed! Haha. I've worked at Angel station, albeit the new one!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 22:01:37 GMT
I went to the old Angel station before and after 'Heart of the Angel' was made. I found the staff to be quite friendly and chatty when I was taking photos. Heart of the Angel by DH73., on Flickr Angel by DH73., on Flickr Molly Dineen's award winning documentaries have been released on DVD through the BFI. I bought mine directly from the BFI shop when it first came out, but they are now all available on Amazon. All of the documentaries on the set (vol.1) I have got are good and remind me how good the BBC's '40 minutes' was. There is also a short piece about the making of 'Heart of the Angel'. goo.gl/yhNsem
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Post by North End on Aug 6, 2014 23:06:19 GMT
Is access to the new Angel station still possible from the old? I'm assuming the old spiral staircase and lower passageways are still in situ. The stairs down to what is now the southbound platform were removed, but is there still some form of staircase behind the door at the south end of the southbound platform? Yes the spiral staircase is still in situ, though last time I went down there it had a 'dangerous structure' notice on it so couldn't actually be used.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 7:10:42 GMT
.....but is there still some form of staircase behind the door at the south end of the southbound platform? In the days of the C&SLR there was a double crossover at the south end of Angel platform. Also, there was a sidings on the left of the NB tunnel that could be accessed from either platform road. When they installed the new NB platform they cut through the sidings at the step plate junction. Just after you passed through the disused City Road station there was, and I assume still is, a bolt hole on the left, behind the cable run. That gave access to the south end of the siding which contained a very shallow pit under the sleepers as well as a single hydraulic ram buffer The old lift entrance to the station was at the north end. You went up the stairs from the platform then along an slightly inclined passageway which, if memory serves me correctly, made a right hand bend to the lifts bottom lift landing.. I cannot remember where the spirals came out at the bottom. I think that they were on your left just before you arrived at the two lift shafts. As a reply to an earlier comment, Station Foremen were also used as lift operators, at least to cover the Ldr's meal relief. I am thinking of Gloucester Road, but I seem to recall that this was not uncommon elsewhere.
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