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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 12:21:15 GMT
I've always wonder when the conventional LUL signalling was introduced? The signals themselves looked dated. I have asked in the past when they were introduced and replies were "in the 40s", "in the 20s". But what I want to know is when they were properly introduced.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 13:59:30 GMT
how long is a piece of string?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 14:36:00 GMT
Dunno any lengh?
30cm?
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Post by domh245 on Jul 7, 2014 15:03:27 GMT
I think that districtsom is referring to the saying "how long is a piece of string" the point of which is (AFAIK) nobody knows As for the question, I assume your talking about the signals as used on the SSL, bakerloo, Piccadilly &c.? I guess that they can probably trace heritage to the CSLR, seeing as the traditional semaphore wouldn't be very good in that situation. I'm sure someone with more knowledge (dstock7080 or reganorak) will be along shortly though to correct me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 15:23:11 GMT
Oh... ok then. I get it. Thanks for some advice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 15:32:33 GMT
In the next issue of Underground News there will be a piece about the end of 'S' prefixed Automatic signals, along with a few other notes. It doesn't answer the original question though.
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Post by programmes1 on Jul 7, 2014 17:30:18 GMT
I bet that's another direct line you have to the editor as well as all the depots.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 22:31:24 GMT
I bet that's another direct line you have to the editor as well as all the depots.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 8, 2014 13:08:50 GMT
In the next issue of Underground News there will be a piece about the end of 'S' prefixed Automatic signals, along with a few other notes. It doesn't answer the original question though. I can't recall 'S' signals anywhere except the Northern line and I've always wondered why we never relabelled them to 'A' signals in the 1977 resignalling. Of course if recently they existed only on the Northern the end of 'S' signals is no doubt as a result of the new TBTC signalling system.
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Post by metrailway on Jul 8, 2014 19:43:03 GMT
I've always wonder when the conventional LUL signalling was introduced? The signals themselves looked dated. I have asked in the past when they were introduced and replies were "in the 40s", "in the 20s". But what I want to know is when they were properly introduced. The signal heads look dated because many of them have been reused. There are quite a few examples of Metropolitan Railway (pre-1933) signal heads out and about on the network like this particular example at Queens Park (pic not mine): link
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 21:11:17 GMT
All Underground lines had 'S' automatic signals in the early years, including the Met.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 21:14:08 GMT
What did the S denote?
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Post by revupminster on Jul 8, 2014 22:06:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 22:08:24 GMT
Oh! Fair enough, nice and simple, thanks On the basis of railtechnicians comment - was it used with Automatic signals only, or all signals?
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Post by revupminster on Jul 9, 2014 8:42:41 GMT
Oh! Fair enough, nice and simple, thanks On the basis of railtechnicians comment - was it used with Automatic signals only, or all signals? Automatics only . Semis had the associated Cabin code or Interlocking Machine Room code in areas under control rooms. The mechanical locking bars (that prevented conflicting moves being made by the signalman) always had to be close to the associated points and signals and contained a miniature signal frame. That is how it used to be but modern signalling is probably different.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jul 9, 2014 14:12:17 GMT
I've always wonder when the conventional LUL signalling was introduced? The signals themselves looked dated. I have asked in the past when they were introduced and replies were "in the 40s", "in the 20s". But what I want to know is when they were properly introduced. A defining moment would be 1898/99, when the Met and District ordered an experimental electric train, to assist with testing all kinds of issues pertaining to the forthcoming electrification. A key thing was the immunisation of track circuits and prevention of traction current earth leakage. As I understand it, a number of conductor rail arrangements were tried and the 4 rail layout as used today was arrived at. This paved the way for the running rails to be used for signalling track circuits which allowed the central areas to be resignalled along with electrification. Presumably, the previous signalling would have been semaphores with some kind of lock and block treadles.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 14:42:48 GMT
Certainly semaphore signalling was in use in the early days and a very quick flick through harsig's frankly excellent diagrams (e.g. www.harsig.org/PDF/Met1933.pdf) shows that they stayed around for some time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 14:58:28 GMT
I think the last one if I remember rightly was on the Richmond road technically not LU signalling but I have a picture of it with a D stock in Richmond platform in book I have here somewhere taken in the early 80's
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 9, 2014 18:46:13 GMT
All Underground lines had 'S' automatic signals in the early years, including the Met. Of course but I never saw them anywhere but the Northern despite working on all lines from the late 1970s. I suspect they had already long gone from the other lines before I began my LT career but I don't actually know. As for the topic of the thread surely all lines were signalled from the very outset, certainly all the tube lines were but old photos suggest the Met was too. Railways had been around a long enough time before the Met opened, hadn't 'policemen' already been replaced by fixed signals on the main lines? When I began with signal New Works we used to refurbish old signal equipment at Angel tram garage (it became a shopping mall/market and AFAIK still is although I haven't been near or by it for at least 12 years) in Upper Street, new racks were also prefabricated there. My very first week on the job I was sent there, wire brushing old relay cases then 'red leading and silvering' them. Signal heads, fixed red lights etc would get similar treatment, equipment did not get wasted. Sometime after I left signals for telephones in 1979 Angel was closed and the refurbishment was done somewhere in Worship Street near Liverpool Street station. Of course these were not the only venues for such work, back then every signal depot, indeed every engineering department had rooms all over the job both on the railway and in disused bus garages and other property where equipment would be manufactured from raw materials, refurbished and rewired, pre-wired or simply stored pending installation. These hives of industry were workshops but could not be called such and were thus known as work rooms as they did not officially exist for the most part.
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Post by revupminster on Jul 9, 2014 19:01:24 GMT
I've always wonder when the conventional LUL signalling was introduced? The signals themselves looked dated. I have asked in the past when they were introduced and replies were "in the 40s", "in the 20s". But what I want to know is when they were properly introduced. A defining moment would be 1898/99, when the Met and District ordered an experimental electric train, to assist with testing all kinds of issues pertaining to the forthcoming electrification. A key thing was the immunisation of track circuits and prevention of traction current earth leakage. As I understand it, a number of conductor rail arrangements were tried and the 4 rail layout as used today was arrived at. This paved the way for the running rails to be used for signalling track circuits which allowed the central areas to be resignalled along with electrification. Presumably, the previous signalling would have been semaphores with some kind of lock and block treadles. I agree with the timeline but I think the District simply imported American trains and signalling hence all the American terms used on the underground. The Central Line had a three rail system with a centre pick up until 1940 so must have used signalling similar to Southern Region.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 0:13:10 GMT
As I understand it... From the beginning the Met & Met District used Spagnoletti Lock and Block mechanical signalling, with semaphore signals. (As an aside, Nock reports the MDR managing 20 tph with this and steam trains...) The first tube railways (C&SL and CLR) were similarly equipped.
As part of the 'Yerkes revoluton' of the Edwardian era, automatic signalling came in, certainly on the MDR and Yerkes tubes, with relatively few signal boxes, and extensive use of pneumatics: in 'open areas' 'conventional' semaphore signals (with arms) were used, in tunnels signals had a fixed (white?) light with a spectacle plate that moved vertically in front of it (conceptually, an armless semaphore - though quite different in construction).
Colour light signals (as we know them) were introduced to the UK on the Liverpool Overhead Railway in 1920, and on the Great Central out of Marylebone in 1923: I assume they were introduced on the Underground very soon after.
The last Lt (LU) semaphore signals were - IIRC - on the Dstrict line east somewhere (possibly Bromley-by-Bow), and replaced in the lat 1960s. I believe BR semaphore signals remained at Richmond for a few more years.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Jul 11, 2014 7:52:46 GMT
The Richmond branch was probably the last LT line that had semaphores. ISTR it was resignalled in 1972 or 73, so ended the semaphores. Gunnersbury's semaphores went just before that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 13:15:37 GMT
The semaphores at Richmond went 24/2/80. So they were used by D Stock but for just four weeks.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 18, 2014 12:44:59 GMT
I assume your talking about the signals as used on the SSL, bakerloo, Piccadilly &c.? I guess that they can probably trace heritage to the CSLR, seeing as the traditional semaphore wouldn't be very good in that situation. Not really... All of the starting signals on the C&SLR were full-size semaphores, although the signal arms were shorter than those employed on surface lines. The two terminals even had overhead gantries in the roof of the station tunnels to carry the array of signals necessary for what would be more easily understood today as 'traffic' and 'shunting' operations. At intermediate stations, the semaphore signals were positioned at the headwall. There were illuminated signals in the confined space of the running tunnels, but these were noticably different to present day coloured light signalling. The original running tunnel signals consisted of a fixed light contained within a square box fronted by a plain convex lens. Coloured glass was mounted in an angled frame which was rotated 90 degrees around the outside of the box to change the aspect. Later C&SLR tunnel signals used the same principle, except that the coloured glass was held in a frame that moved up and down in front of the box - similar to the LER lines. I have often wondered why such a convoluted electro-pneumatic mechanical arrangement was used to display simple red and green lights in those old tunnel sticks when the required feeds could simply have illuminated two aspects as they do in the later colour light signals. As it seems so obvious to be able to light lamps without the air valve, motor, and mechanics one has to assume that there was more than just illuminating an aspect taking place!
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 18, 2014 17:44:47 GMT
I have often wondered why such a convoluted electro-pneumatic mechanical arrangement was used to display simple red and green lights in those old tunnel sticks when the required feeds could simply have illuminated two aspects as they do in the later colour light signals. As it seems so obvious to be able to light lamps without the air valve, motor, and mechanics one has to assume that there was more than just illuminating an aspect taking place! Electro-mechanical signalling was later, it was certainly not the case in the early days. Let me explain why, but first I will have to put this into context... Up until the opening of the C&SLR, there had only been some electric locomotive and tramcar experiments. There were no other electric railways and there was very little electricity anywhere. In fact the power station that the company built at Stockwell was probably the biggest in the world at the time of its opening - and it was small. In fact, there was not quite enough electricity to operate the railway efficiently (they quickly added more power) and certainly not enough to light the stations (they used gas). Across other railway companies, electricity was virtually unheard of. Signals everywhere in the world were illuminated by oil or gas, with some stations and trains supplementing this type of lighting with candles. When signals are illuminated by a flame, it is not feasible for a signalman to extinguish and reignite different coloured signals lights from a distance. It is far easier to move a coloured glass that can be moved in front of a flame. That why there is a spectacle plate on the end of mechanical signal arms and that it is how all illuminated signals worked at the time that the C&SLR was opened for traffic. When the C&SLR needed a coloured light signalling in its tunnels, it was either a case of using existing technology or trying to find a way of controlling a primitive electrical circuit from a mechanical signal frame of the type that was needed to control the interlocking. We can easily discuss alternatives with the benefit of both hindsight and subsequent developments, but this was unexplored territory in 1890 and the company do not seem to have had the time, the inclination or the money to try to develop a new system that may or may not have worked. It was far easier to stick as closely as possible to an off-the-shelf approved system. Thus the tunnel signals were adapted so that they were illuminated by a fixed electric light instead of a fixed oil light, but with redesigned spectacle plates so that they occupied a minimum amount of space. Other than that, the cable that controlled them only needed to be slipped inside some gas piping to get it round the curves in the tunnels. Result - pretty much a conventional mechanical system. You are answering a question that I did not ask, there was nothing at all ambiguous in my question which clearly referred to the later LER signals! I went to a lot of trouble to mention "electro-pneumatic mechanical arrangement" and that is exactly what I was referring to, I have seen photos of tunnel mounted air operated spectacles moved up and down in front of an electric lamp and that is what the query was about as it makes no sense to me.
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Post by CSLR on Jul 18, 2014 18:13:31 GMT
You are answering a question that I did not ask, there was nothing at all ambiguous in my question which clearly referred to the later LER signals! I went to a lot of trouble to mention "electro-pneumatic mechanical arrangement" and that is exactly what I was referring to, I have seen photos of tunnel mounted air operated spectacles moved up and down in front of an electric lamp and that is what the query was about as it makes no sense to me. Fair enough. Well there are some bonus comments there for anyone who wants them. I also think that my notes act as a preamble to why the electro-pneumatic mechanical arrangement evolved in the way that it did, but I do not specialise in LER so I will go no further on that point. Sorry for wasting your time.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 18, 2014 21:55:23 GMT
RT - please don't reply to such informative posts in such a needlessly abrasive manner. Even if it may not be relevant to your question, it is doubtless of worth to others.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 19, 2014 7:36:20 GMT
RT - please don't reply to such informative posts in such a needlessly abrasive manner. Even if it may not be relevant to your question, it is doubtless of worth to others. It's neither needless nor abrasive, it's a statement of fact and it was not addressed to you! All too often people in this place answer questions that were not asked, it is easily done when quickly scanning threads trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. That is not to suggest that the irrelevant reply to my question was uninformative to others, indeed I made no such suggestion. On the other hand your comment is unnecessary and designed to be offensive, which it is, I'll take no lessons in political correctness from you or anyone else whether you begin your unwarranted words of lecture with 'please' or not. If you don't understand written English then have enough respect to hold any intended comment until you do!
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Post by londonstuff on Jul 19, 2014 8:34:37 GMT
RT - please don't reply to such informative posts in such a needlessly abrasive manner. Even if it may not be relevant to your question, it is doubtless of worth to others. It's neither needless nor abrasive, it's a statement of fact and it was not addressed to you! All too often people in this place answer questions that were not asked, it is easily done when quickly scanning threads trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. That is not to suggest that the irrelevant reply to my question was uninformative to others, indeed I made no such suggestion. On the other hand your comment is unnecessary and designed to be offensive, which it is, I'll take no lessons in political correctness from you or anyone else whether you begin your unwarranted words of lecture with 'please' or not. If you don't understand written English then have enough respect to hold any intended comment until you do! Mod CommentRT - you're now being needlessly argumentative and aggressive for no good reason other than to draw a response - I see this in the teenagers whom I teach most days. I always value the content of what you say and indeed your in-depth knowledge of the underground but to use a familiar phrase, that's the wheat and your constant sniping at others the chaffe. I've read on other fora (see, we do understand written English) your opinions of us here - perhaps if our polite requests for you not to fire your bullets in all directions at anyone whom you feel doesn't match your precise criteria then perhaps splendid isolation is the way forward.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 19, 2014 19:53:15 GMT
It's neither needless nor abrasive, it's a statement of fact and it was not addressed to you! All too often people in this place answer questions that were not asked, it is easily done when quickly scanning threads trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. That is not to suggest that the irrelevant reply to my question was uninformative to others, indeed I made no such suggestion. On the other hand your comment is unnecessary and designed to be offensive, which it is, I'll take no lessons in political correctness from you or anyone else whether you begin your unwarranted words of lecture with 'please' or not. If you don't understand written English then have enough respect to hold any intended comment until you do! Mod CommentRT - you're now being needlessly argumentative and aggressive for no good reason other than to draw a response - I see this in the teenagers whom I teach most days. I always value the content of what you say and indeed your in-depth knowledge of the underground but to use a familiar phrase, that's the wheat and your constant sniping at others the chaffe. I've read on other fora (see, we do understand written English) your opinions of us here - perhaps if our polite requests for you not to fire your bullets in all directions at anyone whom you feel doesn't match your precise criteria then perhaps splendid isolation is the way forward. I EXPECT YOU TO WITHDRAW THAT REMARK AND APOLOGISE BUT I DOUBT YOU WILL SEE OR UNDERSTAND HOW UNFAIR IT IS - I AM NO TEENAGER AND AM PROBABLY OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR FATHER SONNY! NOW THAT IS A BULLET, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH IT AFTER YOU CENSOR THIS RESPONSE.
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