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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 11:41:14 GMT
We now find ourselves in the TBTC world, but I myself have very little idea how it works. I was wondering if anybody here would be able to explain to me?
I'm most interested in what it's like for a driver to drive a train under TBTC. What do you see out of the window, what do you see on the TOD, what do you see on the new screen showing speed, etc.? In general, how do you drive a train under TBTC? I'm especially interested in PM operation, but I'd be interested to hear about the other modes, too?
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Post by domh245 on Jun 27, 2014 14:44:12 GMT
I'm not too sure, but I suspect that the view remains quite similar but I suspect that it is fairly mundane, the target speed jumps up suddenly when you are about to leave the station, and then on the approach it starts to drop off being chased by the actual speed indicator. Apparently driving in PM results in an aural torrent of abuse from over speed alarms - I'm sure North end will be along shortly to go into more detail
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 15:36:57 GMT
I'm not too sure, but I suspect that the view remains quite similar Tehe I was thinking more in terms of signage and RS1, RS2, etc. and stuff!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 19:30:24 GMT
I'm not too sure, but I suspect that the view remains quite similar Tehe I was thinking more in terms of signage and RS1, RS2, etc. and stuff! The signage on the mainline is for failure situations only. Although you would see the EP / EPX / LOS etc. whilst you whizz past you would not be taking any notice in ATO or PM. Likewise RS signs only light up when route secure is set for a train that isn't communicating with the signalling system. Otherwise as domh245 says it is all in cab.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 19:43:15 GMT
Okay thanks So what is it one sees in the cab?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 11:25:29 GMT
This is the only one I had to hand. Top bar : destination, train number, VOBC (shows their status), mode (ATO, PM or RM) and time Upper Middle bar : Location, AS (shows when train has stopped correctly at station), dwell time countdown (to departure time) Lower Middle bar : Permitted speed (will also show actual speed) Lower bar : is for text messages
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 12:19:08 GMT
CTN (the location) is Camden Town? And MOR-Y (the destination) is Morden via Bank?
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Post by domh245 on Jun 28, 2014 14:09:58 GMT
Is that displayed on one of the two screens in the middle? I know that the 96 stock had larger speed screens fitted but I didn't know the 95 stock had.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 14:48:53 GMT
The 95s have a new screen just like the 96s, the screen you see in the picture replaces the old-fashioned speed indicator, I believe the screen on the left is the TOD (Train Operator Display) which works pretty much as it did before, although it now obviously displays all kinds of TBTC related info as well and the one on the right remains for CCTV. I think both screens on the 96s are for CCTV aren't they?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 15:00:35 GMT
CTN (the location) is Camden Town? And MOR-Y (the destination) is Morden via Bank? That's correct, yes
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 15:26:19 GMT
Thanks everyone, so when the train is on the move, what is displayed? I've seen pictures with a blue rounded rectangle with a distance in it where the dwell time countdown is in the above picture and an image of a speed limit sign like you have on a road or much of national rail (white disk with red border showing speed in black text) where the AS is. But I obviously don't really know what one is meant to do with this information.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 19:38:48 GMT
I'm no longer on the Northern line, but basically when driving, there's effectively nothing to look at in the tunnel (no more signals) and the signs bear no relevance except in failure scenarios.
The TOD would display the target speed, distance until target speed is required... (e.g. 200m until 20kph etc), actual speed and so on. The AS will appear when the train has achieved Accurate Stop in a station, at which point the doors will be enabled for the T/Op to open them.
Each change of target speed is also accompanied by a tone that goes up or down accordingly
HTH
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 21:45:50 GMT
So you'd be driving along and the red bar in tridentalx's picture would be at - let's say 50. That's to say that the end of the red bar - where it rises in height - would be here at 50, of course, and then the rest of the red bar would continue to the end of the display. And you'd also have a yellow bar indicating your current speed, right? This (the end of it) must be at or before the red bar, right? If it gets too close, the bells and whistles dom mentioned go off, I take it? Would you have a distance until target speed is required in this case, where there's a steady target speed? When is the change in target speed transmitted to the train and when is it displayed to the operator? Leaving that aside, let's continue. All is well in the life of you until you hear - let's say - a falling tone and a new target speed is displayed where the AS is in the picture. Let's say, as you have, the new target speed is 20. The distance until target speed is required will start to decrease as the train nears the point where the new target speed is required, am I right? As it decreases, does the red bar creep down, guiding the deceleration of the train, or does it stay at 50 until the distance reaches 0 and then immediately drop all the way down to 20? In other words, is the rate of deceleration at the T/Op's discretion, or is it guided by the TBTC? When a train stops in a station, does the target speed drop to 0 for the station stop, guiding the train to the correct stopping mark, or does it stay at the appropriate speed - like on the Central - and leave the actual stopping to the operator or to the ATO (which has a map on the Central, as I understand it)? Do you still have the stopping boards on the platforms? And a correction to my earlier post, based on what proji has said. Dom: The screen shown in tridentalx's picture is apparently the TOD. The left hand screen in the middle remains the screen for the *TMS (Train Management System). I was confused - I thought that TOD was actually the name of this, older screen, displaying various information and warnings - as it always did, but now with TBTC-related info presumably also displayed. In fact, TOD seems to be the name of the new, retrofitted TBTC screen displaying what we've been talking about and replacing the old-style speedo
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 13:17:30 GMT
You have it more or less right tut. Where a lower target speed is is impending you have the distance until it which counts down however afaik the red marker doesn't glide down it just shows the new target, so it'd already be at 20 in your example. The white blocks that show your actual speed would need to match by the target.
Approaching a station I believe it shows a 0 for the stopping mark.
Deceleration is to an extent up to the t/op but if they are too slow to slow down you'd get over speed warnings
Regarding the tms... the 2 main (large) screens in a 95 stock are interchangeable by means of a rotary switch (in case of screen failure) so you can have tms and opo CCTV on either, normally tms on left.
I haven't driven under tbtc as left before it came in, but might see if an I/op will let me have a crack at PM at some point. I now reside on the district line instead
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 9, 2014 12:07:28 GMT
We now find ourselves in the TBTC world, but I myself have very little idea how it works. I was wondering if anybody here would be able to explain to me? I'm most interested in what it's like for a driver to drive a train under TBTC. What do you see out of the window, what do you see on the TOD, what do you see on the new screen showing speed, etc.? In general, how do you drive a train under TBTC? I'm especially interested in PM operation, but I'd be interested to hear about the other modes, too? Basically, the TOD will show a target speed, which the Train Operator should aim to achieve. As you approach this speed there will be persistent 'Overspeed imminent' warnings, I can't recall off the top of my head the exact design but I think it's something along the lines of if the VOBC predicts you are within 3 seconds of exceeding the maximum safe speed. Likewise, if there is a new lower target speed the target speed will drop accompanied by a downward-sounding chime, then soon after the 'hand' will start coming down, and the Train Operator should ideally match their braking so that the actual speed is more or less in line with the hand. If braking to a stand, or if there are a number of speed restrictions close together (as I understand), the TOD will instead show a down arrow instead of a speed. When the down arrow appears generally you aim to stop, here the distance comes in to play as this will progressively count down to 0m. The driver should stop on 0m or 1m. Stopping on more than this can cause all sorts of issues in some places! From a realistic point of view, basically there are two ways to drive. You can either match the target speed exactly (and it *is* possible, especially if you know the gradients!) and have to endure 'overspeed immiment' warnings every few seconds, or go just below it and get a more peaceful journey - but lose a few seconds in each section. When the target speed drops, I normally tend to ignore it until a few seconds later the 'overspeed immiment' alarm sounds, then brake down to the new speed. In the tunnel sections this will require fairly heavy braking (just like the ATO), in the open sections the brake rate is more gently so generally lighter braking is adequate. With experience, it is more than possible to brake almost exactly to the hand, and drive in PM as quick or even very slightly quicker than the ATO does. The reason it can be quicker in PM is that the ATO has a messy habit of overbraking for speed restrictions, particularly when going uphill. So if for example braking from 35 mph to 25 mph, the ATO tends to go down to about 21-22 mph, then wait a couple of seconds and then motor back up to 25 mph. An experienced driver can get it down to 25 mph spot on. All that is the theory. In reality, PM driving is not a particularly user-friendly experience. It's not uncommon for the target speed to drop with no warning (leading to the VOBC detecting a speed violation and applying the emergency brake), and the variety of brake rates used in different locations means the driver has to keep on his toes to avoid speed violations. No one yet seems to have provided a convincing explanation for these occasions when the target speed drops with no warning, there are still issues with the system which are being ironed out - my understanding is that PM issues are generally not the top priority. Speed violations are not uncommon in PM, with the way the system is performing at present if you aim to match the target speed exactly then you will get a speed violation from time to time. It's not a big deal if it does happen, as the train can normally be got moving again immediately - though it's undesirable as it results in a sharp stop for the passengers. Initially the driver has to keep a very close eye on the TOD, which can be unnerving finding little time is spent looking out at the line ahead, however with time and experience reliance on the TOD becomes less - however even this can be problematic as you can spend a month getting used to the system behaving in a certain way, then a new speed restriction or software drop comes along and suddenly the speed or braking has changed without notice! The Central Line system is a million times better in many respects.
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
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Post by hobbayne on Oct 23, 2014 21:56:34 GMT
The drivers eye view video from 1999 is available for free download on video 125's website. However it doesnt cover the city branch. If you want that it will cost you a fiver.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 10:46:29 GMT
Hi,
As a long serving train maintainer (a Luddite), when i first travelled in the cab of a TBTC train. And the driver closed the doors, pushed the buttons and sat back... It scared the rubbish out of me, as the train flew off on computer control, with no-one on the TBC controlling the train.
Witchcraft....
Gary
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