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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 15:15:38 GMT
Interesting observation today whilst travelling to Acton Town... As the train I was in passed Ealing Common Depot I noticed a 1992 stock train followed by the RAT train on the same road. The RAT train then left the depot and routed to Acton Works via the sidings at Acton Town. Any idea what the 1992 stock cars were doing at the depot and how the train got there?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 16:01:10 GMT
<speculation> Since the old connection to the District at Ealing Broadway has been taken up, I imagine it came from Ruislip depot and down the Picc using the connection at Ruislip siding. </speculation>
Obviously you should wait for confirmation, but I know of no other location where the Central is connected to any other line.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 16:50:43 GMT
It was moved to Northfields for use on the test track last week, 2 4-car sets moved on Wednesday/Thursday last week. WednesdayThursday
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 17:14:44 GMT
Am I correct in deducing that it was taken along with the RAT because the RAT is fitted with a tripcock for use on "legacy signalled" lines, whereas the 92s are not, or am I speaking nonsense?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 19:26:14 GMT
The tripcock should always be at the front of the train not in this case the rear. To be moved in Traffic Hours it must of had a tripcock fitted remember before the resignalling of the Central Line these trains were fitted with tripcocks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 19:55:20 GMT
Each 4-car 1992 was taken by a 4-car RAT (the west end one, normally 5 cars but with 2440 removed).
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Post by bigvern on Jun 23, 2014 20:08:01 GMT
The 92TS at Ealing Common is being used for brake testing on the South Ealing test track, and was transferred to Northfields depot last week as 2 x 4 car units along with the 1962TS RAT as the Pilot unit, the pilot unit provided the motive power, however the 92 TS has Tripcocks fitted and has through braking with the RAT, as the RAT is fitted with 92TS couplers. The RAT can either lead, or propel the 92TS The 92TS is at Ealing being loaded with weights, the second half of the train will go to Ealing Common for the same, both 92 TS 4 cars will be taken back to Northfields with the RAT and then coupled as an 8 car and the taken to the Test Track for crush Loaded dry and wet brake tests later this week. It will have to go back to Ealing in 2 halves to unload the weights and then back to Ruislip depot, via Ruislip Siding. The 92TS is not allowed to run under its own power off the Central line due to signalling interference issues, however the test track has been immunised so the train can be tested, and is undertaken as a Possession on the Test Track.
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Post by Hassaan on Jun 23, 2014 23:04:16 GMT
I'm certain I saw a full 8-car 92' without anything else on the test track on Saturday?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 11:39:33 GMT
I'm certain I saw a full 8-car 92' without anything else on the test track on Saturday? Yes, that is correct.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 24, 2014 17:50:12 GMT
I'm certain I saw a full 8-car 92' without anything else on the test track on Saturday? The 92TS is not allowed to run under its own power off the Central line due to signalling interference issues, however the test track has been immunised so the train can be tested, and is undertaken as a Possession on the Test Track.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 24, 2014 22:46:43 GMT
My understanding is the interference issue is related to harmonics that could be created by the traction equipment and is generally a worry only with track circuits of 100Hz or less. This would be an issue between Rayners Lane and North Ealing, but not anywhere else.
Indeed they ran quite happily with 125Hz track circuits before the Central Line was fully resignalled, and the section between Ruislip and Eastcote uses the same track circuits as the Central Line.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 15:10:39 GMT
Ealing Broadway was 33 1/3hz before they resignalled the area. The test track between Acton Town and South Ealing is all double cut so was this there way of mitigating different traction packages against the signalling?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 10:14:39 GMT
Was quite cool seeing the 92TS followed by the RAT sat on the alps, gave me something different to look at after i had stabled anyway
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 27, 2014 15:07:21 GMT
So if the connexion still existed at Ealing Broadway, presumably they wouldnt technically need pilot motors at all anymore, if the relevant signalling is now all of a high enough frequency?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 27, 2014 15:43:14 GMT
I think they would still create problems for the district and Piccadilly line signalling.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2014 16:23:06 GMT
Being driven in manual should not cause any issues from a signalling part of view aslong it does not go past Upney at the moment not quite sure if the Piccadilly has any 33 1/3hz track circuits anywhere. They still use Delta position detectors which would be fine where as all the District positions have now been changed. They might need to switch off the ATP/ATO equipment incase that causes interferance but as stated before these trains were running on convential signalling before the upgrade of the Central during the 90's.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 28, 2014 19:46:59 GMT
The Picc has 33 1/3Hz track circuits on the Rayners Lane branch, but not anywhere else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 11:40:58 GMT
The Picc has 33 1/3Hz track circuits on the Rayners Lane branch, but not anywhere else. What happens when a S stock is signalled wrongly at Hanger Lane Junction and the drivers accepts it by mistake ? Have they thought of that ? As they say 33 1/3Hz is not compatible for these trains.
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Post by br7mt on Jun 29, 2014 15:05:53 GMT
The signalling at Hanger Lane Jct has been modified to detect train length, as I don't think S Stock is allowed under a certain bridge on the route up to Rayners Lane. As a result it should not be possible to send an S7 the wrong way at that junction.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 15:34:57 GMT
as I don't think S Stock is allowed under a certain bridge on the route up to Rayners Lane Which seems a bit of a shame, because it seems like another option for rolling stock transfer is out. Still, seems like they've alighted upon a good way of solving the wrong stick problem
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 29, 2014 22:41:18 GMT
That is a surprise as the S stock is certainly no taller than the A stock which can run between Rayners to Acton albeit at limited speed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 23:21:30 GMT
As far as I knew there was no signalling mods to prevent the route to North Ealing being selected if a S7 was on approach.
Ballast trains can be just as long as normal passenger trains how do they get round that problem then?
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 30, 2014 7:37:10 GMT
Ealing Broadway was 33 1/3hz before they resignalled the area. The test track between Acton Town and South Ealing is all double cut so was this there way of mitigating different traction packages against the signalling? The test track is part of the Picc which is double cut on all roads all the way to Heathrow from just west of Acton Town and has been since the 1970s resignalling long before the newer traction packages were designed.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 30, 2014 7:46:43 GMT
The Picc has 33 1/3Hz track circuits on the Rayners Lane branch, but not anywhere else. I have long wondered why North Ealing to South Harrow never got upgraded to 125Hz, presumably Ealing Broadway has been upgraded since I last worked there in 2004. There was of course the ongoing speculation for many years that SSL would take over North Ealing to South Harrow which could explain why the Picc spent its money on the Picc main.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 11:06:20 GMT
Ealing Broadway was converted only for the tracks and GR's which have TR/GR to 125hz it still has kept its 33 1/3hz for everything else though. SSL took over only as far as RWM2 just west of North Ealing including to Ealing Broadway and upto the X signals going towards South Ealing.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 30, 2014 16:32:37 GMT
Ealing Broadway was converted only for the tracks and GR's which have TR/GR to 125hz it still has kept its 33 1/3hz for everything else though. SSL took over only as far as RWM2 just west of North Ealing including to Ealing Broadway and upto the X signals going towards South Ealing. An interesting deviation from standard in that presumably there are now two AC Mains at different supply frequencies in the same run feeding equipment in the same physical area.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2014 22:00:38 GMT
Ealing Broadway was converted only for the tracks and GR's which have TR/GR to 125hz it still has kept its 33 1/3hz for everything else though. SSL took over only as far as RWM2 just west of North Ealing including to Ealing Broadway and upto the X signals going towards South Ealing. An interesting deviation from standard in that presumably there are now two AC Mains at different supply frequencies in the same run feeding equipment in the same physical area. From what I can gather, there always were two AC mains leaving North Ealing Substation, as Hanger Lane Junction IMR has for some time had relays of both frequencies. The 125Hz main ran direct to HLJ before the frequency conversion of Ealing Broadway.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2014 22:02:51 GMT
The signalling at Hanger Lane Jct has been modified to detect train length, as I don't think S Stock is allowed under a certain bridge on the route up to Rayners Lane. As a result it should not be possible to send an S7 the wrong way at that junction. Regards, Dan Except it hasn't yet. The train measuring circuitry is in place (and has been since April) but has not been 'cut in' to the controls of any signals due to the need to undertake a 'soak test' of the circuitry with test trains and issues with Train Operator's reps regarding the positioning of the override plunger in the event of an over-length train needing to take the Rayners Lane route. S stock is prohibited from operating over any track circuits where the supply is less than 100Hz, due to the potential for the traction package to interfere with the correct operation of the track circuit. At the moment this includes the Rayners Lane branch of the Piccadilly Line and the District Line east of Upney.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 2, 2014 4:39:43 GMT
An interesting deviation from standard in that presumably there are now two AC Mains at different supply frequencies in the same run feeding equipment in the same physical area. From what I can gather, there always were two AC mains leaving North Ealing Substation, as Hanger Lane Junction IMR has for some time had relays of both frequencies. The 125Hz main ran direct to HLJ before the frequency conversion of Ealing Broadway. That wasn't quite what I was getting at! My recollection is that Hanger Lane Junction IMR was 125Hz only as were all the trackside relays from that point towards Ealing Common i.e. WM 3,4,5,20/21, 9W. North Ealing and all sites to the boundary on approach to Rayners Lane was 33 1/3Hz. Ealing Broadway part way towards WM1 was 33 1/3Hz as was WP 17 to Ealing Broadway. ISTR that just west of HLJ on approach to WP17 was 125Hz but I really don't recall how far towards WP17 and I believe that WM1 and its repeaters were 125 Hz If I am correct (having not worked trackside or within HLJ IMR there since 2001 I could well be wrong) the point I was making was that the 33 1/3 Hz and 125 Hz areas did not overlap but were quite distinct. I presume now that both 125Hz and 33 1/3Hz are either present in the Ealing Broadway IMR or at trackside although I can see that it would be possible to maintain separation of the two if all the 125Hz track relays and signal relays were now outside albeit all the points KLPPR relays being in the IMR.
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Post by br7mt on Jul 2, 2014 10:29:50 GMT
The signalling at Hanger Lane Jct has been modified to detect train length, as I don't think S Stock is allowed under a certain bridge on the route up to Rayners Lane. As a result it should not be possible to send an S7 the wrong way at that junction. Regards, Dan Except it hasn't yet. The train measuring circuitry is in place (and has been since April) but has not been 'cut in' to the controls of any signals due to the need to undertake a 'soak test' of the circuitry with test trains and issues with Train Operator's reps regarding the positioning of the override plunger in the event of an over-length train needing to take the Rayners Lane route. S stock is prohibited from operating over any track circuits where the supply is less than 100Hz, due to the potential for the traction package to interfere with the correct operation of the track circuit. At the moment this includes the Rayners Lane branch of the Piccadilly Line and the District Line east of Upney. Thanks Tom, thought I had been told incorrectly then, but I didn't have the full facts. Interesting that S7 Stock has been signed off to Ealing Broadway then before the proving circuit has been signed off. Regards, Dan
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