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Post by metrailway on Jun 15, 2014 15:25:00 GMT
This morning there was a cable fire on the approach to Marylebone station causing major signalling problems. Hence, Marylebone station is closed and Aylesbury trains via Amersham is starting from Harrow on the Hill, whilst trains to High Wycombe and beyond are starting from West Ruislip. Looks like this will last all day and well into Monday.
A heads up to Met commuters. It is pretty bad on the Met with Sunday Aylesbury traffic. Expect it to be far worse during tomorrow's morning peak!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 16:56:24 GMT
This morning there was a cable fire on the approach to Marylebone station causing major signalling problems. Hence, Marylebone station is closed and Aylesbury trains via Amersham is starting from Harrow on the Hill, whilst trains to High Wycombe and beyond are starting from West Ruislip. Looks like this will last all day and well into Monday. A heads up to Met commuters. It is pretty bad on the Met with Sunday Aylesbury traffic. Expect it to be far worse during tomorrow's morning peak! I wonder if Chiltern can temporarily run a few more trains to Paddington on the back of their existing running rights with the daily 'Parliamentary' from W Ruislip.
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Post by melikepie on Jun 15, 2014 20:39:14 GMT
Can Chiltern run to Baker Street?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 15, 2014 21:17:41 GMT
Would there be capacity at Baker Street? Especially as the Met trains will be full of displaced Chiltern passengers any extra disruption caused would not be appreciated
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Post by metrailway on Jun 15, 2014 22:00:15 GMT
I wonder if Chiltern can temporarily run a few more trains to Paddington on the back of their existing running rights with the daily 'Parliamentary' from W Ruislip. Suspect that there would be no paths into Paddington for Chiltern to run trains during the am peak. Can Chiltern run to Baker Street? No. Chiltern cannot run into Baker Street. Some info on Chiltern's website
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Post by kesmet on Jun 16, 2014 7:48:17 GMT
Perhaps the wrong place to ask - but what does CALL mean in the emergency timetable? It's used in place of an actual time for some stops.
I'm guessing it means something like "The train will call here, but with no exact timing schedule - so get there early" - but wouldn't that be a bit of an unusual thing to be presenting to passengers? I can understand obviously that this has been put together quickly, just finding it a little odd. Are these stops that would not be made by the 'equivalent' trains from the standard timetable?
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Post by bassmike on Jun 16, 2014 15:18:45 GMT
What is the gauge envelope of a Chiltern train compared to the dimensions of the tunnels from Finchley road to Baker st:? The width can't be a problem as the A stock were wider.
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Post by bassmike on Jun 16, 2014 15:21:41 GMT
Did'nt mean to post twice,-- am expecting a comment from maxym!
Mod comment - sorted for you
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Post by aldenham on Jun 16, 2014 17:55:45 GMT
Would have thought the carriage length would be more of a problem, the coaches being 22m long on the class 165 dmu, as opposed to 17m, give or take, on the S stock,rather than width.
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Post by brigham on Jun 16, 2014 19:11:42 GMT
It might help flexibility if gauge trials were undertaken, despite only four platforms, heavily-used, being available. I'm a great believer in quick and effective emergency working.
Here in the Durham coalfield, 'bustitution' is the first and final answer to all interruptions apart from those to London-Newcastle expresses. It seems no-one even knows how to set up single-line working any more.
A poor state of affairs, considering the dismal service offered in the first place; we tend to measure in 'hours between trains' rather than 'tph'.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 16, 2014 19:31:24 GMT
I'm sure that long car DMUs would not fit down the single line tunnels. It was tight for A stock!!
The chances of NR trains being allowed to run to Baker Street are 0%!
I wonder how long the list of reasons why Chiltern DMUs couldn't run to Baker Street could be?
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Post by domh245 on Jun 16, 2014 19:49:42 GMT
I wonder how long the list of reasons why Chiltern DMUs couldn't run to Baker Street could be? Depending on the font size you use, it may well be as long as the distance between Harrow-OT-Hill and Baker street But seriously, I suspect that route knowledge might be a problem - would there be sufficient T/Ops available to pilot the Chiltern drivers through to baker street, as well as the obvious things such as clearances, general lack of space at Baker street (isn't it the case that stepping back is already in use, with a fairly high platform occupation rate?), and all sorts of other problems, would a 168 sat in the tunnels between Finchley Road and Baker street kick out enough fumes to trigger something bad &c.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 16, 2014 22:17:30 GMT
Is there no system of handsignalling which can be used on an emergency basis? Or, in today's commercial-rather-than-service system, is it cheaper for NR to close the line entirely (and give money to Chiltern) rather than operate but with severe delays (and give money to Chiltern, and pay handsignalmen).
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Post by domh245 on Jun 16, 2014 22:48:33 GMT
I think that there are ways of hand signalling trains through an area, but when you are trying to investigate the issue, as well as repairing it, having to stop every so often to let a train through wouldn't be very beneficial. In this case, it was better to just abandon the service and let the repair men do their thing, rather than running a skeleton service
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Post by grahamhewett on Jun 17, 2014 15:35:13 GMT
Is Baker Street a "s12 station"? If so, there can be no diesel service there of any description.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 16:32:23 GMT
Now that Chiltern say they are back to normal (save for some short-formed trains, etc), did anyone use the Met on Sunday and Monday? Was it really "chaos" (at Harrow?) and I guess West Ruislip was busier than normal too, not helped by the Sunday afternoon shut-down west of Marble Arch for an hour-plus because of arcing on the track at White City.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Jun 18, 2014 6:11:04 GMT
All the old forms of emergency working have gone out of the window in the computer signalling era. If computer says no, then it's no!
We used to have single line working; hand signalmen; time interval working; station-to-station working and probably a few more I've forgotten about.
If CR were to go to BS, CR crews would have to learn the Met from HotH, all lines, and work it regularly (every 6 months) to keep route knowledge.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 18, 2014 18:28:02 GMT
In the 70's and 80's, the Northern line had single line running between Hampstead and Golders Green and between Totteridge and High Barnet during two extended periods of engineering work, and still kept the passenger service running, albeit at a reduced frequency. As Roy said in his post, you really can't imagine that happening now, or even be allowed to!
The system has become a lot less flexible than it once was. I'm thinking of such as examples as when Bakerloo trains ran into Baker Street met, C stock getting commandeered to run on the Met main line and so on.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 10:53:56 GMT
In the 70's and 80's, the Northern line had single line running between Hampstead and Golders Green and between Totteridge and High Barnet during two extended periods of engineering work, and still kept the passenger service running, albeit at a reduced frequency. As Roy said in his post, you really can't imagine that happening now, or even be allowed to! The system has become a lot less flexible than it once was. I'm thinking of such as examples as when Bakerloo trains ran into Baker Street met, C stock getting commandeered to run on the Met main line and so on. Remember both well. I was a Controller on the Northern for both of these and still have the WTT at home somewhere for the Totteridge one. In those days - we ran and it worked. I also have a photo taken c.1979 at Dollis Hill SB, with weekend engineering work on the SB Met and the SB Jub still running a service. Bet that wouldn't happen now.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 19, 2014 18:16:26 GMT
In the 70's and 80's, the Northern line had single line running between Hampstead and Golders Green and between Totteridge and High Barnet during two extended periods of engineering work, and still kept the passenger service running, albeit at a reduced frequency. As Roy said in his post, you really can't imagine that happening now, or even be allowed to! The system has become a lot less flexible than it once was. I'm thinking of such as examples as when Bakerloo trains ran into Baker Street met, C stock getting commandeered to run on the Met main line and so on. Remember both well. I was a Controller on the Northern for both of these and still have the WTT at home somewhere for the Totteridge one. In those days - we ran and it worked. I also have a photo taken c.1979 at Dollis Hill SB, with weekend engineering work on the SB Met and the SB Jub still running a service. Bet that wouldn't happen now. I'm sure I've said it before in this place but when I joined LT in the 1970s it was a cardinal sin to have escalators out of service, for last train connections not to be held and for engineering work to unnecessarily delay or prevent the operation of train services. These days no-one cares about any of that and no-one is held responsible for it as they would've been all those years ago. I worked on the Northern resignalling when it was single line working for the removal of blue asbestos back in 1978 (IIRC), back then engineering was very much 'can do' regardless of many circumstances that will prevent it today. We had to keep trains running throughout the resignalling work for months as we installed new cable brackets and air main night in night out and then running in thousands of metres of new lead covered cables. The blue asbestos discovery happened in the middle of the resignalling work and had to be catered for PDQ. The temporary single line working signalling was installed very quickly so the external asbestos removal team could get to work, as I recall they took quite a few weeks to complete the task. In those days signal problems were not a reason to hold up traffic without good reason, that went for accidents too. Back then we used to finish installation work at around 0415 and begin tidying up, making sure nothing was left out of gauge in the tunnels and all rubbish was cleared back to the platforms for storage. The cables used to hang off the air main on balata straps, the air main secured to the tunnel segments via pipe clips. One morning after a nights work and while loading up the trolley in the tunnel there was a sudden 'twang' as a pipe clip gave way under the weight of cables tied to it, that stressed the next pipe clip which also gave way and began a chain reaction ripping the air main and cabling from the tunnel segments for a hundred metres or more and dropping it onto the track. The only thing that stopped the wave of destruction was the next signal location as the bundle was arrested by a line of location relay cases and track transformer. Luckily there were about 40 staff on site as we had been working in all four tunnels out of Chalk Farm, fortunately we also had a ready stock of 4 way brackets and air main stored in the old lift shaft at Chalk Farm where we kept our track trolleys and tool bins for the job. We were able to install new brackets and air main and lift the cables into the brackets as we went temporarily repairing the damage and making good for traffic with no appreciable delay to service although ISTR that we held up the first train for about 15 minutes. It is the kind of incident that I have no doubt would cause major disruption nowadays. We did many things in those days that simply aren't done today.
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Post by metrailway on Jun 19, 2014 23:03:10 GMT
Now that Chiltern say they are back to normal (save for some short-formed trains, etc), did anyone use the Met on Sunday and Monday? Was it really "chaos" (at Harrow?) and I guess West Ruislip was busier than normal too, not helped by the Sunday afternoon shut-down west of Marble Arch for an hour-plus because of arcing on the track at White City. This was the scene at West Ruislip on Monday (image not mine): linkAll the old forms of emergency working have gone out of the window in the computer signalling era. If computer says no, then it's no! We used to have single line working; hand signalmen; time interval working; station-to-station working and probably a few more I've forgotten about. If CR were to go to BS, CR crews would have to learn the Met from HotH, all lines, and work it regularly (every 6 months) to keep route knowledge. If the fire was slightly worse, the signalling on the whole line to Aynho Junction (south of Banbury) and to Aylesbury could have gone. In the future if a similar thing were to happen the situation could be far worse as Network Rail are gradually migrating from 800+ signal boxes/centres to only 14 'rail operating centres' for the whole network. The rule book still allows Temporary Block Working in Track Circuit Block areas and Single Line Working...
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