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Post by jamesb on May 5, 2014 10:42:07 GMT
When the W&C line was closed for months several years ago and had new signalling and track, why wasn't it fitted with some form of ATO?
Given that it is one line with only two stations, wouldn't this be an ideal live testing ground for the new ATO planned for the subsurface lines?
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Post by superteacher on May 5, 2014 10:45:45 GMT
Not sure. Maybe the kne is just too simple to be able to expose issues with ATO?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 15:58:50 GMT
What better way to test if something will work on something than testing it on the something itself? No other line carries the same quirks etc.
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Post by domh245 on May 5, 2014 16:23:24 GMT
What better way to test if something will work on something than testing it on the something itself? No other sign carries the same quirks etc. Isn't that exactly what they do with jet engines? Its all well and good doing tests on the ground and computer simulations but until it is actually in a working environment, some flaws can't be identified. Also, when the w&c was redone, the last resignalled line would have been the central, which I don't think was considered a brilliant system, so TfL wouldn't have wanted to put anything on it yet. Also I think it was also about the time that metronet started to fall apart, or just after tfl bought it, so I'd imagine that had an impact. I suspect that it'll be used as a testbed for the new tube for London system its associated driverless system, when they gets around to happening. |
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Post by trt on May 5, 2014 17:25:49 GMT
I suspect that it'll be used as a testbed for the new tube for London system its associated driverless system, when they gets around to happening. The W&C is a pretty harsh environment. Leaky and creaky as anything! |
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Post by melikepie on May 5, 2014 17:29:24 GMT
The W&C is a pretty harsh environment. Leaky and creaky as anything! Perhaps you've solved that drain mystery! |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 21:46:16 GMT
What better way to test if something will work on something than testing it on the something itself? No other sign carries the same quirks etc. Isn't that exactly what they do with jet engines? Its all well and good doing tests on the ground and computer simulations but until it is actually in a working environment, some flaws can't be identified. Also, when the w&c was redone, the last resignalled line would have been the central, which I don't think was considered a brilliant system, so TfL wouldn't have wanted to put anything on it yet. Also I think it was also about the time that metronet started to fall apart, or just after tfl bought it, so I'd imagine that had an impact. I suspect that it'll be used as a testbed for the new tube for London system its associated driverless system, when they gets around to happening. Using it as a test bed is likely to be what happens. If it were to fail in testing it is no real worry as its isolated. |
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Post by railtechnician on May 6, 2014 7:37:52 GMT
Isn't that exactly what they do with jet engines? Its all well and good doing tests on the ground and computer simulations but until it is actually in a working environment, some flaws can't be identified. Also, when the w&c was redone, the last resignalled line would have been the central, which I don't think was considered a brilliant system, so TfL wouldn't have wanted to put anything on it yet. Also I think it was also about the time that metronet started to fall apart, or just after tfl bought it, so I'd imagine that had an impact. I suspect that it'll be used as a testbed for the new tube for London system its associated driverless system, when they gets around to happening. Using it as a test bed is likely to be what happens. If it were to fail in testing it is no real worry as its isolated. There is also little value in using the W&C for such testing. A better place would be Walthamstow to Seven Sisters on the Victoria line where several stations are involved, there is easy access to the depot and a better chance to evaluate the trials and tribulations of such a system on a representative portion of the network. |
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Post by miff on May 6, 2014 19:18:51 GMT
Or Woodford to Hainault, as was used for the prototype ATO system using the 1960 stock.
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Post by railtechnician on May 7, 2014 6:16:24 GMT
Or Woodford to Hainault, as was used for the prototype ATO system using the 1960 stock. The system is more complex in terms of technologies in use today than it was then, thus an open section is not representative of all the issues that would potentially be encountered in service in tube tunnels. Therefore a tunnel section has to be the optimum test area. Much of the discussion about driverless trains has focussed upon tunnel incidents and what could not be done, it's impossible to evaluate any of that in an open section. In any driverless train scheme radio is bound to be at the heart of whatever systems are implemented and there are issues affecting radio transmission systems in tunnels which cannot be successfully tested elsewhere. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 7, 2014 10:27:14 GMT
A better place would be Walthamstow to Seven Sisters on the Victoria line where several stations are involved, there is easy access to the depot and a better chance to evaluate the trials and tribulations of such a system on a representative portion of the network. That would be quite disruptive if something were to go wrong - looking at carto metro I don't think it's possible to run the service in two sections like that - for a start any reversal at Seven Sisters from either directoin requires access to the depot branch and the use of Platform 4. Even if it were possible, any problems would propagate onto the service on the rest of the line. Not to mention depriving three busy stations of their Tube service - although even for those who believe there is nothing beyond the Tube map, one of those stations has an alternative line available and another soon will have. Could the Aldwych branch be used as a test bed? |
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Post by programmes1 on May 7, 2014 11:28:21 GMT
Like RT has said the Waterloo & City would not be any good so the Aldwych branch would not either. The use of the Victoria line Seven Sisters-Walthamstow would be better but would the service levels allow? I would suspect that any test train would be double manned so reversal at Seven Sisters Plt 5 SB via either 62 or 63 roads to Plt 4 bay road could be achieved.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 7, 2014 11:45:56 GMT
The tests would almost certainly require modification of the existing signalling and control systems on whichever line is used, which would itself need testing and evaluation before service trains could run on it. Until this is done, test trains could not run interspersed with normal service trains in the way you suggest. The advantage of the Aldwych branch over the Drain is that it has no passenger service, so you can do extra things with it - put in a phantom intermediate station (i.e arrange the signalling so the train behaves as it would at a real station), as is apparently done on the Kennington loop according to this thread. districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/21481/northern-line-tbtc#page=7 The absence of points may be a mark against it, but trains don't see points - the see "proceed" aspects and "stop" aspects. Despite the absence of points, with moving block it might be possible to run more than one train on the line to test that the signalling keeps them apart. (I understand from the same thread that this can happen, and has happaned by accident on the MHE branch - inconvenient if the train is in service, but perfectly safe. |
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Post by railtechnician on May 7, 2014 13:16:51 GMT
A better place would be Walthamstow to Seven Sisters on the Victoria line where several stations are involved, there is easy access to the depot and a better chance to evaluate the trials and tribulations of such a system on a representative portion of the network. That would be quite disruptive if something were to go wrong - looking at carto metro I don't think it's possible to run the service in two sections like that - for a start any reversal at Seven Sisters from either directoin requires access to the depot branch and the use of Platform 4. Even if it were possible, any problems would propagate onto the service on the rest of the line. Not to mention depriving three busy stations of their Tube service - although even for those who believe there is nothing beyond the Tube map, one of those stations has an alternative line available and another soon will have. Could the Aldwych branch be used as a test bed? Seven Sisters was my home station for more than 25 years. Yes it does get very busy in the morning and late afternoon / evening rush hours but from there to Walthamstow is not so busy at times in between. Since when has LU cared about service, it was happy to make large parts of the Jubilee unavailable for endless weekends over several years. Knocking off three stations at the end of the line for a couple of hours a day during the week is no big deal, Seven Sisters would not have to be affected except to move a test train to and from the depot. One of the plus points about Seven Sisters to Northumberland Park depot is two completely separate roads, northbound in and southbound out and reversing via the depot should be not be a problem, indeed it should have advantages. |
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