Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 30, 2014 9:51:58 GMT
This morning there were three services running on the east end of the Central line, Epping to Leytonstone, Woodford to Hainault and Hainault to Marble Arch via Newbury Park. Signs and audio announcements at Debden described taking the service to Leytonstone then boarding the "shuttle service" to Marble Arch.
This got me wondering about whether there is any definition of what a "shuttle" service is? It is frequently used for the Woodford-Hainault section to describe a short section where a small number of trains run back and forth. However, Hainault to Marble Arch is a very significant portion of the line and there were a large number of trains operating it.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 30, 2014 11:21:08 GMT
The shuttle of a weaving loom moves back and forth along the same path. This implies to me that a shuttle service cannot be operated by more than one train, so in the strictest sense the only shuttle services on the Underground were the self-contained single-track Holborn-Aldwych, Chalfont-Chesham, Finchley-Mill Hill, Epping-Ongar and Acton Town-South Acton branches. (In the very strictest sense even the Ongar branch would be disqualified by its intermediate stops)
The "Navette" on the Paris Metro would have been another example. On National Rail the Slough - Windsor, and Stourbridge branches are examples, with the definition poissibly extendeing to the Castlebar, Emerson, Henley and Marlow lines.
The "Transits" that connect the north and south terminals at Gatwick are (two separate) shuttles, as each operates on its own self contained track).
If anything, I would describe the Epping- Leytonstone service as a shuttle, feeding in to the Hainault - Marble Arch main line.
The term then came to mean any service running between two points, such as the Drain, or "Le Shuttle" - the car-carrying trains through the Channel Tunnel, which operate on a continuous loop. Even more recently it has come to mean any short service with no branches, such as the Olympia "shuttle" or the NCL, or Woodford/Hainault, even though they use more than one train, use separate tracks, and have intermediate stops. Virgin even tried to market its Euston Birmingham service as a "shuttle" at one time. On that basis you could describe the Jubilee Line, or even the Circle, as a shuttle!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 16:28:28 GMT
I think norbitonflyer's got that spot on and it seems to accord with the wiktionary definition as well: "A transport service (such as a bus or train) that goes back and forth between two places." Personally, not that I get to define how terms are used of course , I get the feeling that "shuttle" is most commonly (and probably most usefully) used where a service is operated by only one train going back and forth - even if two trains can be used. In that sense, of course, the WOO-HAI service operating today was certainly shuttle as there was only one train working it, even if more could've been laid on (and perhaps were/will be in the peaks, I dunno). I suppose it would also be sensible to apply the term to a situation where you have two trains going back and forth between destinations, one in one direction, one in the other. Still, I suppose today it was just meant to get the point across that trains will be going back and forth between those destinations only and that, for example, if you're at Debden, there's no point hanging around hoping for a through train. I think it also let's people know that there will be a train to connect with. On my ride home this evening, I noticed one woman who seemed pretty convinced that Hainault was her only option and that she wouldn't be able to get onto "the other line". I, obviously, was going to go over and help her, but then our T/Op made a timely announcement. Just push buttons all day, do they...? (Sorry, no need for that rant here.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 16:59:51 GMT
Also, thinking about what you said about the Jubilee - I actually think it'd perfectly sensible to describe individual trains as shuttling up and down between Stanmore and Stratford and I think trains probably are sometimes described like that. But it would make less sense to describe the whole line like that, because trains are regularly short-tripped at Willesden Green, Wembley Park and North Greenwich. Even the Circle, where trains do shuttle between Hammersmith and Edgware Road most of the time, trains can still be short tripped, or sent off to some of the pink destinations
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 30, 2014 17:57:01 GMT
Shuttle also to me implies something moving swiftly. I think it should be between two points "shuttling backwards and forwards", though the recent rise of bus services described as "city shuttles" doesn't really fit this.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 16:57:45 GMT
A shuttle implies a short distance, frequent, quick service.
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Post by John Tuthill on May 4, 2014 17:18:00 GMT
So the Aldwych Holborn service, and the Chesham branches must be the ultimate shuttles?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 4, 2014 17:42:47 GMT
South Acton would have beaten Chesham, not sure about Aldwych or Mill Hill East-Finchley Central.
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Post by melikepie on May 4, 2014 17:55:00 GMT
How about Cockfosters to Arnos Grove with the only stop being Oakwood? It does happen
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Post by rheostar on May 4, 2014 18:36:28 GMT
How about Cockfosters to Arnos Grove with the only stop being Oakwood? It does happen Don't forget Southgate. ;-)
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Post by melikepie on May 4, 2014 19:32:35 GMT
I didn't
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metman
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Post by metman on May 6, 2014 13:37:19 GMT
Can you or anyone else explain why Southgate is missed out?
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Post by railtechnician on May 6, 2014 14:36:30 GMT
Shuttle does not imply distance, nor speed, only going back and forth.
On that basis a line with 30 trains running A to B and back could be described as a multishuttle which cannot be !
A shuttle has to run back and forth in the same path, thus there can be but one shuttle in any given path. Realistically then, a line could never operate more than two shuttles between the same points, i.e. one on each road running back and forth without crossing over.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 6, 2014 14:44:40 GMT
Realistically then, a line could never operate more than two shuttles between the same points, i.e. one on each road running back and forth without crossing over. Even more predantically, you can run one shuttle per road. You'd have difficulty running as many as that on he Aldwych shuttle, but on other lines e.g Northfields to Hammersmith, you could run as many as four!
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Post by melikepie on May 6, 2014 14:52:20 GMT
Can you or anyone else explain why Southgate is missed out? It seems common in every strike we have had, a 20 min shuttle runs between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove and Southgate is closed for some reason
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Post by Tubeboy on May 6, 2014 15:47:44 GMT
I'm guessing Southgate is shut, as being underground (well the platforms) the station needs a minimum level of staffing, which isn't available on a strike day.
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Post by railtechnician on May 6, 2014 19:05:15 GMT
Can you or anyone else explain why Southgate is missed out? It seems common in every strike we have had, a 20 min shuttle runs between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove and Southgate is closed for some reason Cockfosters to Arnos is all open section except for the short tunnel section containing Southgate. My best guess is that keeping the station closed reduces the potential for complications because staff are needed in a tube station underground.
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Post by rheostar on May 7, 2014 7:43:46 GMT
It seems common in every strike we have had, a 20 min shuttle runs between Cockfosters and Arnos Grove and Southgate is closed for some reason Cockfosters to Arnos is all open section except for the short tunnel section containing Southgate. My best guess is that keeping the station closed reduces the potential for complications because staff are needed in a tube station underground. This. During strikes, Southgate will be missed out as it requires more trained staff to keep it open - it's in a tunnel section and has escalators. However, during service disruption (not during a strike) a Cockfosters - Arnos Grove shuttle service may be introduced for a short period of time, stopping normally at Southgate. It all depends on the circumstances.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 7, 2014 18:53:57 GMT
I was discussing this with a bus driver friend last night. He seemed to be of the opinion that a shuttle is a service between two points with no intermediate calls. I was asked how MetroShuttle fitted that and he called it a word that I can't repeat on this forum!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 22:32:17 GMT
I was at Woodford this evening waiting for a train to Hainault during the fun and games on the Central (was on one which was short-turned at Liverpool Street, makes a nice change, not a lot of fun for the poor lady who had to tip it out but I appreciated the novelty ) and I happened to overhear a radio call come through the radio of a member of station staff standing on the opposite platform. I don't know who made the call, obviously, presumably it was someone in Wood Lane. I also didn't catch all the details after all I wasn't the intended audience but he was talking about a Leytonstone - Epping shuttle. In fact the term shuttle was thrown around a fair bit. I bring this up, obviously, as an illustration that it really does seem that 'shuttle' is used in these contexts by the professionals too.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 8, 2014 23:29:45 GMT
I changed onto the Central Line at Mile End (having heard nothing about the delays while at Temple), where there were no audio announcements about anything other than keeping your belongings with you. I heard the driver of the third train saying that there was a shuttle service between Leytonstone and Epping. The driver of that train (an older gentleman by the sound of his voice) was very good at letting us know what he knew about what was happening (which wasn't a lot).
When I eventually got to Leytonstone there was chaos, with the audio announcements, train announcements and train describers all disagreeing with each other about everything other than that what was in the platform was a train. The driver of the third train started out saying that he was going to Hainault, then heard the station announcer and said that he thought he was going to Hainault but that he was waiting for the signal to clear before he could be certain which way the signaller would be sending him. It then transpired that he was going to Epping after all.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 8, 2014 23:31:06 GMT
I've also just noticed that aslefshrugged starts his 30 April entry with "I spent yesterday shuttling between LES and EPP"....
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 23:33:39 GMT
The T/Op who took me to Leytonstone informed us at Stratford:
"This train is for Hainault via Newbury Park. The information boards are wrong. This is a Hainault via Newbury Park train. Any passengers left on the platform please check the front of the next train."
He repeated that last message at Leytonstone as well.
Sorry, struggling to stay on topic this evening, must've been the warmth down the pipe!
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Post by theblackferret on May 26, 2014 20:14:54 GMT
Living down here in sunny Plymouth, we recently had both the Waterloo-Exeter & Paddington-Plymouth lines knocked out of action. One of the company's websites referred to buses replacing trains between somewhere a lot of water was and shouldn't be and the next city down the line, and t'other referred to an emergency bus SHUTTLE(my caps.) between some other newly-submerged Lyonesse and another next city down the line. I only mention this because I can distinctly remember Network SE, British Rail & LT on past occasions all using both descriptions- emergency bus services and emergency bus shuttle- to describe what we had to look forward to when engineering works etc were in progress, usually on a Sunday, of course, or weekday late evening. Usually refreshment-free buses, funnily enough, too. I personally associate shuttle services as something unusual or unscheduled, as it were. I would always have thought of Aldwych as a branch-line, and part of the Hainault loop in the same way. Sorry, but South Acton ceased when I was only 7, so never used it! The Epping-Ongar bit would only have struck me as a possible shuttle if they had purposely omitted either North Weald or Blake Hall(pre-1981 closure) from most trains. Nobody would have noticed if they had, anyway. I think the use of shuttle has evolved over time, but what the correct useage is or should be now remains a very moot point. Steve
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on May 27, 2014 6:14:48 GMT
Isn't a shuttle either bus, train or whatever a service that runs without a timetable similar to the Maglev that use to run between Birmingham Airport and Birmingham International.
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