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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 9:24:52 GMT
In this clip there are flashes of light on the track when the A stock passes through Neasden. Am I right in saying that this is arching?
Also is arching much of a problem for S stock?
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Post by bassmike on Apr 6, 2014 9:54:13 GMT
ARCING
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Post by domh245 on Apr 6, 2014 9:54:59 GMT
In this clip there are flashes of light on the track when the A stock passes through Neasden. Am I right in saying that this is arching? Also is arching much of a problem for S stock? It is arcing. It's essentially the current jumping between the conductor rail and the shoe, ionising the air, giving the blue flash and the noise. Arcing will happen with just about any electric train, 4th rail, 3rd rail, or even OLE, so its as much of a problem for S stock as it was for A stock and is for every other electric train.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 6, 2014 12:09:00 GMT
You can recreate this phenomena at home by rubbing your hand briskly over some rough man made fibre (nylon or similar) and then putting your index finger close to a metal surface. In a darkened room the results can be quite spectacular as the charge arcs to earth.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 6, 2014 13:46:11 GMT
It is electricity jumping the gap between the collector shoe and the live rail. As the live rail is not continuous, particularly at pointwork, there have to be gaps in the rail, and as the shoe loses contact with a rail or approaches another there is going to be a point where the resistance of the air is low enough to allow electricity to jump across. At what point that happens depends on a number of factors - notably the line voltage, the resistivity of the air (which depends on how humid it is) etc. You can see some quite big sparks when the pantograph is raised or lowered on Thameslink trains at Farringdon, accompanied by a big buzzing noise. The voltages there are, of course, about 100 times bigger than those on the tube. But for really big flashes, watch a live rail train in wet or icy conditions. Ice is quite a good insulator, and causes the shoes to make intermittent contact with the rail. It is usually most noticeable towards the front of the train, as the leading shoes tend to clear the ice away and the later shoes make better contact and keep the train moving. In extreme cases, where the shoe is held by the ice just far enough away from the rail for an arc to penetrate the ice, the arcing can last quite a long time and damage the shoegear. I have even heard of shoegear getting welded to the rail.
Rain can also do cause arcing - especially if the shoes start aquaplaning.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:21:16 GMT
In this clip there are flashes of light on the track when the A stock passes through Neasden. Am I right in saying that this is arching? Also is arching much of a problem for S stock? It is arcing. It's essentially the current jumping between the conductor rail and the shoe, ionising the air, giving the blue flash and the noise. Arcing will happen with just about any electric train, 4th rail, 3rd rail, or even OLE, so its as much of a problem for S stock as it was for A stock and is for every other electric train. Yes I know, but it is an inefficiency and surely you should aim to cut it . Similar to how you would try to reduce eddy currents in an electromagnet
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 6, 2014 16:43:51 GMT
I'm sure that the engineers do all that they can to reduce arcing, whether on third or fourth rail or overhead electric current systems, in the UK or at any point abroad. The fact that it still occurs sporadically would suggest that perhaps they've got it about as good as it can get. You can of course completely eliminate it by using diesel or steam trains. That'd not be a very economical move.
Sent from my iPad
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Post by phillw48 on Apr 6, 2014 17:27:29 GMT
I used to live alongside the Liverpool Street line at Romford. Pre-dawn on a frosty morning you used to get a quite spectacular display. It didn't please the fitters at Ilford car sheds, they had to replace a lot of carbon inserts on pantographs.
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 6, 2014 18:12:17 GMT
You can recreate this phenomena at home by rubbing your hand briskly over some rough man made fibre (nylon or similar) and then putting your index finger close to a metal surface. In a darkened room the results can be quite spectacular as the charge arcs to earth. What you need is a volunteer to stand up straight on a nylon carpet and wearing your rubber soled shoes you charge yourself up by wiping your feet a few times. You then point your index finger closely at the volunteer's ear lobe and should hear a click as he reacts to the zap. A darkened room is best and vigorous feet wiping should give a nice fat blue spark as the victim volunteer becomes animated, the effect is not dissimilar to the shock from holding a spark plug lead close to the spark plug with the engine idling. Zapping one another in the sixth form at grammar school was a popular pastime back in 1969 !
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 6, 2014 19:33:18 GMT
Zapping one another in the sixth form at grammar school was a popular pastime back in 1969 ! It still was in 1976 RT!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 6, 2014 19:58:48 GMT
My GSCE physics teacher had a good trick to play on the first years.
His first class was always a fun one as he demonstrated the Van Der Graff generator, on the bench would innocently be a Bunsen burner with the gas tap turned on, but isolated at the shut-off under his desk. With one hand on the generator he would turn the gas on with his foot (rubber shoe of course) and then point at the child sat the other side of the Bunsen and shout "you!" Of course the spark went from his finger to the earthed Bunsen and ignited the gas.
He then spent the rest of the lesson explaining that he didn't have the power to make fire erupt from his fingers!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 7, 2014 12:56:38 GMT
Our Chemistry O Level teacher was eventually declared clinically insane but prior to this he once unwittingly set fire to the fume cabinet that was behind him at the front of the class. It was quite amusing as he explained some complex chemical equation while the flames licked up the wall and scorched the ceiling. When he finally realised what we were sniggering at, his reaction was akin to Corporal Jones from Dads Army, bellowing "Don't Panic" umpteen times.
Anyway, how dare I drag this interesting topic even further offside..........
Arcing on the Metropolitan Line. It's a part of Underground that is familiar to me of old and I for one hope that never succeed in getting rid of it as it'll be another little bit of quirkiness gone!
Sent from my iPad
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Post by phillw48 on Apr 7, 2014 16:39:04 GMT
Arcing on the Metropolitan Line. It's a part of Underground that is familiar to me of old and I for one hope that never succeed in getting rid of it as it'll be another little bit of quirkiness gone! Sent from my iPad Arcing will occur on 3rd/4th rail (and OLE) as long as we have frosty mornings. To prevent it the only option is to have under running 3rd rail such as the DLR. Incidently does arcing occur on the DLR?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Apr 7, 2014 17:32:20 GMT
Arcing on the Metropolitan Line. It's a part of Underground that is familiar to me of old and I for one hope that never succeed in getting rid of it as it'll be another little bit of quirkiness gone! Sent from my iPad Arcing will occur on 3rd/4th rail (and OLE) as long as we have frosty mornings. To prevent it the only option is to have under running 3rd rail such as the DLR. Incidently does arcing occur on the DLR? Thank heavens for that. Phil, don't mention frosty mornings otherwise I'll be off topic again talking about fishing on lonely rivers. Believe me, you have to do it to know what I mean! Awesome! I've not seen if on DLR as far as I can recall but I've not travelled much on the toy railway. ChrisM's the kiddie as far as this network's concerned on here so I'd wait for his input if he spots the thread. Sent from my iPad
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Post by motorman on Apr 7, 2014 19:05:51 GMT
One of the most spectacular places for arcing is under the bridge at Eastcote station. A conveniently placed gap in the conductor rail always let to a good amount of arcing from a departing Uxbridge bound train. Great watching an A Stock depart here. Is it still the same now? Might check this weekend when photographing the 'C' Stock tour.
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Post by tunnelbore on Apr 7, 2014 20:41:31 GMT
It is arcing. It's essentially the current jumping between the conductor rail and the shoe, ionising the air, giving the blue flash and the noise. Arcing will happen with just about any electric train, 4th rail, 3rd rail, or even OLE, so its as much of a problem for S stock as it was for A stock and is for every other electric train. Yes I know, but it is an inefficiency and surely you should aim to cut it . Similar to how you would try to reduce eddy currents in an electromagnet Italian engineers I know have been known to call it arching because in Italian there is no distinction between arc (as in electrical spark or geometric feature) and arch (as in arch over a window or in a bridge). An arc, formed of hot ionised air as domh245 says, actually conducts electricity quite well which is why they sustain so well on DC circuits (but extinguish on AC as they cool when the current drops to zero). Best reason for trying to suppress them is probably to prevent eating away at shoe and rail material rather than power losses. Hard to avoid them completely because shoe and rail (or pantograph and wire) will loose contact with each from time to time.
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 8, 2014 7:08:21 GMT
Zapping one another in the sixth form at grammar school was a popular pastime back in 1969 ! It still was in 1976 RT! Arcing can of course be very useful! In my days as a telephone engineer we used to use an arc to write our name or other identifying marks on our tools. All that was required was a standard lead pencil, HB was ideal, and the exchange 50v dc power supply. We'd connect positive (earthed side of supply) to the tool to be marked and the negative (fused feed side of supply) to one end of the pencil lead and then simply write on the tool leaving an indelible burnt on impression. It helped if the pencil was brand new rather than worn, the longer length lead giving greater resistance and less chance of blowing the battery supply fuse. Of course marking too many tools at once was a bad idea as the lead would get rather hot and apart from making the pencil difficult to hold on to would also cause the lead to burn the wood on the inside of the pencil shaft enough that it became loose within it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 22:17:12 GMT
Yes I know, but it is an inefficiency and surely you should aim to cut it . Similar to how you would try to reduce eddy currents in an electromagnet Italian engineers I know have been known to call it arching because in Italian there is no distinction between arc (as in electrical spark or geometric feature) and arch (as in arch over a window or in a bridge). An arc, formed of hot ionised air as domh245 says, actually conducts electricity quite well which is why they sustain so well on DC circuits (but extinguish on AC as they cool when the current drops to zero). Best reason for trying to suppress them is probably to prevent eating away at shoe and rail material rather than power losses. Hard to avoid them completely because shoe and rail (or pantograph and wire) will loose contact with each from time to time. Well there's also safety. I hope TfL no longer use wooden supports for live rail like they did in 1997! I know 100% efficiency is impossible! Apologies! Our Chemistry O Level teacher was eventually declared clinically insane but prior to this he once unwittingly set fire to the fume cabinet that was behind him at the front of the class. It was quite amusing as he explained some complex chemical equation while the flames licked up the wall and scorched the ceiling. When he finally realised what we were sniggering at, his reaction was akin to Corporal Jones from Dads Army, bellowing "Don't Panic" umpteen times. Anyway, how dare I drag this interesting topic even further offside.......... Arcing on the Metropolitan Line. It's a part of Underground that is familiar to me of old and I for one hope that never succeed in getting rid of it as it'll be another little bit of quirkiness gone! Sent from my iPad Lol but did he do a good job in teaching Chemistry?
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Post by domh245 on Apr 8, 2014 22:44:12 GMT
Italian engineers I know have been known to call it arching because in Italian there is no distinction between arc (as in electrical spark or geometric feature) and arch (as in arch over a window or in a bridge). An arc, formed of hot ionised air as domh245 says, actually conducts electricity quite well which is why they sustain so well on DC circuits (but extinguish on AC as they cool when the current drops to zero). Best reason for trying to suppress them is probably to prevent eating away at shoe and rail material rather than power losses. Hard to avoid them completely because shoe and rail (or pantograph and wire) will loose contact with each from time to time. Well there's also safety. I hope TfL no longer use wooden supports for live rail like they did in 1997! I know 100% efficiency is impossible! The only time an arc would be dangerous for a customer would be if they were wearing something metallic and holding holding said object inches away from the live rail. Any staff working about the track have been trained to avoid arcs (or use short circuiting devices). The only real danger is from "arc eye" but given how rapid the arcing is, it is not particularly dangerous, and more often than not, the passengers won't be looking directly at the arc. Drivers are slightly more at risk, but again the exposure is low, so it's not particularly dangerous, but I know that some drivers see arcing as one of the biggest irritations of the job. Going back a bit, but here is an example of OLE arcing:
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 10, 2014 0:19:33 GMT
Arcing on the Metropolitan Line. It's a part of Underground that is familiar to me of old and I for one hope that never succeed in getting rid of it as it'll be another little bit of quirkiness gone! Sent from my iPad Arcing will occur on 3rd/4th rail (and OLE) as long as we have frosty mornings. To prevent it the only option is to have under running 3rd rail such as the DLR. Incidently does arcing occur on the DLR? I have seen it occur on the DLR (around the flyover at Canning Town and the crossovers at Prince Regent) but it seems to not happen as much as on top contact systems
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 8:16:31 GMT
The principal cause of the bigger arcs on DC systems with conductor rails is transient gapping typically over pointwork but also potentially at section gaps etc. This is more prevalent on the underground because there is no traction supply bus between cars and because it will occur if contact is lost with either the pos or neg whilst taking power or when regen braking is in progress.
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