Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 15:37:25 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road?
Crossrail will already have interchange with the Jubilee line at Stratford or Canary Wharf.
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Apr 5, 2014 17:18:43 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road? I seem to recall reading that it was partially because Oxford Circus is about twice as busy (with entries and exits) than either Tottenham Court Road or Bond Street. So the station rebuild would have to be much larger to accommodate numbers. The eastern ticket hall at Bond Street will be just around the corner from Oxford Circus, in Hanover Square. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 22:27:34 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road? I seem to recall reading that it was partially because Oxford Circus is about twice as busy (with entries and exits) than either Tottenham Court Road or Bond Street. So the station rebuild would have to be much larger to accommodate numbers. The eastern ticket hall at Bond Street will be just around the corner from Oxford Circus, in Hanover Square. It seems a mistake to me- it seems like creating a Euston and Euston Square situation IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by littlebrute on Apr 5, 2014 23:05:56 GMT
Without causing mass disruption to traffic, customers or businesses there isn't really a way for Crossrail to stop at Oxford Circus
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Apr 5, 2014 23:21:12 GMT
I seem to recall reading that it was partially because Oxford Circus is about twice as busy (with entries and exits) than either Tottenham Court Road or Bond Street. So the station rebuild would have to be much larger to accommodate numbers. The eastern ticket hall at Bond Street will be just around the corner from Oxford Circus, in Hanover Square. It seems a mistake to me- it seems like creating a Euston and Euston Square situation IMO. And why should it be a mistake? Crossrail is quite different to a Tube line, potentially delivering two - three times as many passengers per train. Any passengers will still be delivered to the immediate area, with from the east end of Bond Street or the West end of Tottenham Court Road. As I hinted, if Crossrail directly fed into the Underground area at Oxford Circus then the current part of the station would need a substantial rebuild. Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road are "getting away" without additional platforms on the existing lines, but I doubt that would be the case at Oxford Circus. Additionally, Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road are nicely spaced at just under a mile apart, removing either from Crossrail wouldn't help with distributing passengers along Oxford Street and the surrounding areas. If there were to be another station in Central London, I would say that a stop in the Holborn area would be more useful as there is a much larger gap from Tottenham Court Road to Farringdon. |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 5, 2014 23:27:37 GMT
Crossrail misses interchange with ....the Bakerloo line, . I don't think it does: the Bakerloo was extended to Paddington in December 1913! It seems a mistake to me- it seems like creating a Euston and Euston Square situation IMO. New lines should IMO create new interchanges, not push even more people into the existing ones, creating single points of weakness in the network: anathema to any network designer in the electricity or telecoms industries. And it's not as if Oxford Circus would add that many extra interchange opportunities: nearly every station served by a direct line to Oxford Circus will already have at least one direct connection to a Crossrail-served station. (I can count those that do not on the fingers of one hand, without using my thumb) Indeed, a station at Holborn would improve connectivity far more. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Apr 6, 2014 12:46:22 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road? Crossrail will already have interchange with the Jubilee line at Stratford or Canary Wharf. You can't have connections with every line on the network. Crossrail will have a ticket hall at Hanover Square which is 3-4 minutes brisk walk from Oxford Circus tube. I expect TfL will enable an Out of Station interchange between Oxo tube and Hanover Square for those who want to walk between the two. Joining Bond Street tube, Bond St Crossrail and Oxford Circus tube would create a massive and almost certainly unmanageable station complex. I think managing Crossrail's stations will be a big enough job never mind throwing in two incredibly busy tube stations too. You also need to consider fire evacuation capacity and egress times. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 16:21:31 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road? Crossrail will already have interchange with the Jubilee line at Stratford or Canary Wharf. You can't have connections with every line on the network. Crossrail will have a ticket hall at Hanover Square which is 3-4 minutes brisk walk from Oxford Circus tube. I expect TfL will enable an Out of Station interchange between Oxo tube and Hanover Square for those who want to walk between the two. Joining Bond Street tube, Bond St Crossrail and Oxford Circus tube would create a massive and almost certainly unmanageable station complex. I think managing Crossrail's stations will be a big enough job never mind throwing in two incredibly busy tube stations too. You also need to consider fire evacuation capacity and egress times. Liverpool Street and Moorgate complex will be a manageable interchange! |
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Apr 6, 2014 19:34:28 GMT
Liverpool Street and Moorgate complex will be a manageable interchange! A combined Oxford Circus Bond Street would have more than 110 million annual entries / exits (from the statistics released in 2012, I can't immediately find newer ones on the TfL website), the combined numbers for Liverpool Street / Moorgate being less than 85 million; so the station would be around 30% busier before even considering Crossrail. This would make the combined station no busier than Waterloo, the current busiest LU station. Additionally, both Moorgate and Liverpool Street are used to handling interchange with National Rail services (which Crossrail will be much more like than an Underground line) and the combine would have one less Underground line serving it than Oxford Circus / Bond Street. |
|
|
|
Post by grahamhewett on Apr 7, 2014 16:14:01 GMT
Norbitonflyer has put his finger on the point, surely. A double ended station with six banks of escalators with four of those going in the peak direction can handle 7200 people per hour tops, otherwise the escalators cannot clear the platforms. Underground passage ways are similarly constrained. Adding more and more lines/trains to an interchange merely brings the station to its knees as we all saw at Kings Cross and Victoria. It's much better use of station capacity to spread the load between as many nodes as possible. In fact, we are rapidly getting to the point where it is station capacity not line capacity which is the limiting factor on Underground expansion and new stations on new lines are a much better bet than trying to expand the existing network. (If this sounds like a criticism of XR2, it's meant to - XR2 aims straight for most of the congested points on the network).
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Apr 7, 2014 17:40:29 GMT
You can't have connections with every line on the network. Crossrail will have a ticket hall at Hanover Square which is 3-4 minutes brisk walk from Oxford Circus tube. I expect TfL will enable an Out of Station interchange between Oxo tube and Hanover Square for those who want to walk between the two. Joining Bond Street tube, Bond St Crossrail and Oxford Circus tube would create a massive and almost certainly unmanageable station complex. I think managing Crossrail's stations will be a big enough job never mind throwing in two incredibly busy tube stations too. You also need to consider fire evacuation capacity and egress times. Liverpool Street and Moorgate complex will be a manageable interchange! Mr Purk has covered the main issues by comparing relative demand at other stations managed as a single complex. The other point I'd make is that we cannot really be certain what will happen to passenger flows. You're assuming everything will increase whereas it may well be the case for a few years that people swap services. People may arrive on Crossrail who previously turned up on the Sub Surface lines from Paddington or from Liverpool St / East London. To that extent the station will be managing the same passengers. Clearly there are new journey links and that will lead to some increases. I suspect that higher tph on LU's lines and the promised expansion of Great Northern train services may cause more issues as there's no plan to expand those platforms or add escalators or more ticket gates in that part of Moorgate station. Crossrail will, at least, add extra capacity in its part of the station. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 21:55:51 GMT
Crossrail misses interchange with ....the Bakerloo line, . I don't think it does: the Bakerloo was extended to Paddington in December 1913! It seems a mistake to me- it seems like creating a Euston and Euston Square situation IMO. New lines should IMO create new interchanges, not push even more people into the existing ones, creating single points of weakness in the network: anathema to any network designer in the electricity or telecoms industries. And it's not as if Oxford Circus would add that many extra interchange opportunities: nearly every station served by a direct line to Oxford Circus will already have at least one direct connection to a Crossrail-served station. (I can count those that do not on the fingers of one hand, without using my thumb) Indeed, a station at Holborn would improve connectivity far more. The Victoria line tend to offer a much faster route to central London than the alternatives at stations such as Walthamstow Central, Stockwell, etc.. I agree- Holborn & Oxford Circus may have been a better choice than Bond Street & TCR Norbitonflyer has put his finger on the point, surely. A double ended station with six banks of escalators with four of those going in the peak direction can handle 7200 people per hour tops, otherwise the escalators cannot clear the platforms. Underground passage ways are similarly constrained. Adding more and more lines/trains to an interchange merely brings the station to its knees as we all saw at Kings Cross and Victoria. It's much better use of station capacity to spread the load between as many nodes as possible. In fact, we are rapidly getting to the point where it is station capacity not line capacity which is the limiting factor on Underground expansion and new stations on new lines are a much better bet than trying to expand the existing network. (If this sounds like a criticism of XR2, it's meant to - XR2 aims straight for most of the congested points on the network). Building new Underground stations (as in subterranean ones!) is extremely expensive. Interesting King's Cross deals with it's problems by tricking the unwary into long detours through a labyrinth of passageways to the new Northern line ticket hall! There is demand for easy interchange- we want to avoid situations like we have with 2 Edgware Road stations, Warren Street/Great Portland Street/Regent's Park. It's a shame Crossrail won't be providing much if any cross platform interchange like the Victoria line has |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 22:01:14 GMT
Liverpool Street and Moorgate complex will be a manageable interchange! Mr Purk has covered the main issues by comparing relative demand at other stations managed as a single complex. The other point I'd make is that we cannot really be certain what will happen to passenger flows. You're assuming everything will increase whereas it may well be the case for a few years that people swap services. People may arrive on Crossrail who previously turned up on the Sub Surface lines from Paddington or from Liverpool St / East London. To that extent the station will be managing the same passengers. Clearly there are new journey links and that will lead to some increases. I suspect that higher tph on LU's lines and the promised expansion of Great Northern train services may cause more issues as there's no plan to expand those platforms or add escalators or more ticket gates in that part of Moorgate station. Crossrail will, at least, add extra capacity in its part of the station. What's good for the gander is good for the goose, if you argue that Moorgate will lead to travel pattern changes you can do the same for Oxford Circus E.g people who normally go from Paddington on the Bakerloo and change at Oxford Circus for the central line eastbound can take Crossrail directly at Paddington - reliving Oxford Circus a bit. Without causing mass disruption to traffic, customers or businesses there isn't really a way for Crossrail to stop at Oxford Circus So what about the disruption caused by the TCR station? |
|
|
|
Post by mikebuzz on Apr 13, 2014 23:10:44 GMT
The Hannover Sq entrance is quite close to Oxford Circus, I think one of the TCR entrances is not much further the other way. Oxford circus simply can't take the crush and there is no room to expand the station. It can't take/be made to take the loads TCR and Bond St can. Crossrail stations are very big and long, e.g. Moorgate and Liverpool St, Farringdon and Barbican, so its not always easy to fit them in.
Holborn I think has some station safeguarding on Crossrail.
|
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Apr 14, 2014 5:24:34 GMT
Crossrail will give step free access for all lines Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road.
This would not have an easy task at Oxford Circus or Holborn.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 17:26:07 GMT
I ask this is as Crossrail misses interchange with the Victoria line (& the Bakerloo line), surely a stop at Oxford Circus might have been good even if it meant losing one at Bond Street or even Tottenham Court Road? I seem to recall reading that it was partially because Oxford Circus is about twice as busy (with entries and exits) than either Tottenham Court Road or Bond Street. So the station rebuild would have to be much larger to accommodate numbers. The eastern ticket hall at Bond Street will be just around the corner from Oxford Circus, in Hanover Square. It's also worth pointing out that even if it were possible to spend a horrendous amount of money expanding Oxford Circus, say £1bn, there's another capacity constraint - Oxford Street itself. At peak times not only is the Oxford Circus pedestrian crossing over-capacity, but there simply isn't enough room on the pavement to cater for the number of people. If you dumped additional passengers at Oxford Circus they wouldn't be able to physically get out of the station! Kind regards, TSM |
|
