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Post by revupminster on Mar 27, 2014 7:52:28 GMT
Announcement today for extention to Reading.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 27, 2014 10:20:26 GMT
DfT and TfL have jointly announced that Crossrail services will be extended from Maidenhead to Reading. Crossrail announcementTfL Press ReleaseTrains will only run half hourly from Reading with 4 tph from Maidenhead into London. |
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Post by melikepie on Mar 27, 2014 10:30:17 GMT
Will Oyster readers be installed at all stations when Crossrail opens?
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Post by carltona on Mar 27, 2014 11:14:13 GMT
A good move by TfL. This should further relieve the Bakerloo and H&C at Paddington.
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Post by melikepie on Mar 27, 2014 12:34:34 GMT
How?
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Post by snoggle on Mar 27, 2014 13:02:32 GMT
Will Oyster readers be installed at all stations when Crossrail opens? There has been a tweet this morning from an ITV London reporter saying there is no deal yet on Oyster at Twyford and Reading. The Mayor of London said a fair while ago that Oyster would apply to Crossrail as it was defined then - Shenfield - Maidenhead and the Abbey Wood branch. Oyster is already available to Shenfield so it is just the section from West Drayton to Maidenhead that remains to be equipped. I've seen no dates as to when that will happen. Extending Oyster to Reading may prove very problematic given that Reading is a major junction on the rail network and will be a key determinant of fares for tens of thousands of journeys in the UK. Even if Oyster did reach there don't expect TfL cheapo fares and concessions like Freedom Passes to apply! Loads of commercial issues about how all this would be funded and who gets what shares of revenue etc. I can't see the London Boroughs funding Freedom Passes for trains to Reading. They are already very concerned about the money they're paying out in respect of TfL run rail services. |
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Post by revupminster on Mar 27, 2014 13:20:13 GMT
I do not expect freedom passes to be valid at Reading. At the moment Freedom passes can be used at Dartford and Hampton Court simply by the amount of pensioners turning up caused them to be brought in. They already go to Epping, Amersham and Watford Junction so Reading and Shenfield will probable enter the political football of election for mayor. Every GLC or mayoral election has increased the availability of what was a "Bus Pass"
On a secondary point will staff passes become available all stations Shenfield to Reading. When I first worked on the Underground you could not use the staff pass between Barking and Fenchurch Street
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 27, 2014 13:36:57 GMT
Oyster is already available to Shenfield . only to Harold Wood according to the tFl map Extending Oyster to Reading may prove very problematic given that Reading is a major junction on the rail network and will be a key determinant of fares for tens of thousands of journeys in the UK. In particular it would almost certainly need SWT to agree to installing Oyster at all stations between Feltham and Reading -good luck with that one! |
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Post by revupminster on Mar 27, 2014 13:51:33 GMT
Oyster is available to Purfleet, Chafford Hundred and Grays but Freedom passes are not. Only the will to extend is needed the technology is there already.
Last week in Paignton I used the freedom pass on Stagecoach Southwest buses. The driver just watches the light change from amber to green on the reader.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 27, 2014 14:44:00 GMT
Oyster is already available to Shenfield . only to Harold Wood according to the tFl map Extending Oyster to Reading may prove very problematic given that Reading is a major junction on the rail network and will be a key determinant of fares for tens of thousands of journeys in the UK. In particular it would almost certainly need SWT to agree to installing Oyster at all stations between Feltham and Reading -good luck with that one! I don't which map you are referring to but PAYG was extended to Shenfield and Brentwood well over a year ago. There are PAYG fares for Shenfield in the TfL Single Fares Finder. The TfL rail services map clearly shows the Oyster area (dashed line) encompassing Shenfield. It is the Travelcard zonal area that does not run beyond Harold Wood. I agree the issue about SWT's service to Reading might be a tad problematic. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 15:08:22 GMT
And what about the Henley and Marlow branches?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 27, 2014 15:37:02 GMT
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Post by bicbasher on Mar 27, 2014 17:01:05 GMT
I suspect the Watford Junction situation will happen at Twyford and Reading with Freedom Passes. Valid on Crossrail, but not on FGW with special fares on Oyster PAYG.
It's also worth remembering that Oyster will be valid later this year at Gatwick, however no confirmation if stations between Merstham and Horley will be added to Oyster.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 17:24:33 GMT
I'm worried that trains are just going to end up busy by Twyford with current users who would take fast services from Reading, Twyford or the Marlow branch into Paddington preferring to get a seat on-board a direct Crossrail service? In terms of Oyster, Reading is too far for it go really, but they're really going to have to push the 'no oyster' message - the only 2 stops where oyster isn't valid! If they're going to allow it, freedom passes probably shouldn't be valid (it's way out from London to be honest). Oyster would definitely need to be made valid on the FGW services too, at the same fare, or Crossrail will just become overloaded. On the plus side you could travel on an HST (if they're still around) or one of the new Intercity Expresses with an Oyster  |
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Post by sawb on Mar 27, 2014 17:49:08 GMT
So Crossrail was going to Reading, then it wasn't, now it is again. Why do I get the feeling we haven't heard the last of this.... I'm worried that trains are just going to end up busy by Twyford with current users who would take fast services from Reading, Twyford or the Marlow branch into Paddington preferring to get a seat on-board a direct Crossrail service? In terms of Oyster, Reading is too far for it go really, but they're really going to have to push the 'no oyster' message - the only 2 stops where oyster isn't valid! If they're going to allow it, freedom passes probably shouldn't be valid (it's way out from London to be honest). Oyster would definitely need to be made valid on the FGW services too, at the same fare, or Crossrail will just become overloaded. On the plus side you could travel on an HST (if they're still around) or one of the new Intercity Expresses with an Oyster The Great Western operator (whoever it may be by then) will probably try to pull a fast one by not stopping HSTs/IEs at Reading so that people can't use Oyster PAYG. Can't imagine that going down too well, and can't see how you could stop the average Jo doing it, unless you had dedicated platforms at Paddington for local services and dedicated platforms for HSTs/IEs! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 17:53:22 GMT
The Great Western operator (whoever it may be by then) will probably try to pull a fast one by not stopping HSTs/IEs at Reading so that people can't use Oyster PAYG. Can't imagine that going down too well, and can't see how you could stop the average Jo doing it, unless you had dedicated platforms at Paddington for local services and dedicated platforms for HSTs/IEs! I'm hope there's some kind of franchise commitment for stopping at Reading, even so it would probably be commercial suicide in other ways to not stop trains there with how many interchange opportunities it has... |
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Post by phil on Mar 27, 2014 20:21:32 GMT
Oyster would definitely need to be made valid on the FGW services too, at the same fare, or Crossrail will just become overloaded. On the plus side you could travel on an HST (if they're still around) or one of the new Intercity Expresses with an Oyster No it doesn't - remember back in British Rail days there were lots of places that offered two types of fare - a lower price one only valid on Network SouthEast / Regional Railways, and a more expensive one vaid on InterCity services. There is absolutely no reason why Crossrail cannot be the same. At places like Peterborough, Milton Keynes Watford Junction & Gatwick Airport such practices continue to this day. As for it being overcroweded that depends - Crossrail will be slower and stop at pretty much everywhere, while FGW (or whatever they are called in the next Franchise term) will get to Paddington quicker plus have first class (and toilets) for those who like such things. Of course changing at Paddington can cancel out the time advantage but even so I imagine there will still be plenty of people who prefer to go that way. Also if your end destination is not on Crossrail then getting to Paddington quicker might be an advantage anyway. People from Twyford of course will have no choice to get Crossrail - but its worth noting that although we now know Crossrail will go to Reading there are a number of other things we don't know including whether the Thames branches might retain some sort of peak service to Paddington (using new / refurbished EMUs say two 4 cars splitting at Maidenhead for Bourne end & Henley) and what sort of service will be adopted by the proposed western rail access to Heathrow airport (which in itself may well be financed through an extension to the "Heathrow supplement" and could be operated by the current "Heathrow Express" lot - possibly as compensation for Crossrail taking over the current HEX paths into London). |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 27, 2014 20:31:35 GMT
So Crossrail was going to Reading, then it wasn't, now it is again. Why do I get the feeling we haven't heard the last of this.... I'm worried that trains are just going to end up busy by Twyford with current users who would take fast services from Reading, Twyford or the Marlow branch into Paddington preferring to get a seat on-board a direct Crossrail service? In terms of Oyster, Reading is too far for it go really, but they're really going to have to push the 'no oyster' message - the only 2 stops where oyster isn't valid! If they're going to allow it, freedom passes probably shouldn't be valid (it's way out from London to be honest). Oyster would definitely need to be made valid on the FGW services too, at the same fare, or Crossrail will just become overloaded. On the plus side you could travel on an HST (if they're still around) or one of the new Intercity Expresses with an Oyster The Great Western operator (whoever it may be by then) will probably try to pull a fast one by not stopping HSTs/IEs at Reading so that people can't use Oyster PAYG. Can't imagine that going down too well, and can't see how you could stop the average Jo doing it, unless you had dedicated platforms at Paddington for local services and dedicated platforms for HSTs/IEs! Given the DfT are looking to enter into a further direct award franchise to FGW, beyond those already in place, then you can rest assured it will probably still be FGW come 2019. We need to remember that the South East Flexible Ticketing (SEFT) project is looking to provide smart ticketing across most of the old Network South East area long before 2019. It may not be Oyster but ITSO spec cards are capable of use on the Oyster kit right across Greater London. I expect the DfT will require FGW and SWT to adopt ITSO / SEFT kit and that will be that. I really cannot see the DfT allowing Great Western to do anything to reduce the number of stops by express trains at Reading. There would be massive discontent and huge political fall out for the Tories who hold many seats in and around Reading. We are only talking about a half hourly service to Reading on Crossrail which is incapable of taking up the sort of demand that would arise in the peaks if fewer HST/IEPs stopped. I suspect people will experiment with it in the early days and will be put off by the longer journey times given the majority of e/b Crossrail trains at Paddington will be starting empty there anyway. I do expect Crossrail from Reading will be popular but people aren't going to stand for 50 minutes when they can stand for half that time and be in Paddington. The problem is that there has been no announcement of extra trains being ordered for this extension which rather suggests Crossrail will just have to work their fleet a bit harder. Therefore there will be no scope for an expansion in services. Nonetheless one of the Reading MPs is already demanding a phase 2 to Crossrail to Reading with more trains, semi fast and fast workings and trains with toilets and catering so they can "compete" with FGW. He wants to see "price based competition" between FGW and Crossrail. I'll refrain from being rude at this point.  |
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Post by bicbasher on Mar 27, 2014 21:20:47 GMT
In terms of Oyster, Reading is too far for it go really, but they're really going to have to push the 'no oyster' message - the only 2 stops where oyster isn't valid! If they're going to allow it, freedom passes probably shouldn't be valid (it's way out from London to be honest). The same could be argued for Amersham/Chesham, yet London councils are paying for their residents to visit deepest Bucks. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 27, 2014 23:52:55 GMT
On the plus side you could travel on an HST (if they're still around) or one of the new Intercity Expresses with an Oyster I've travelled on a Voyager using a travelcard - Olympia to East Croydon |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 28, 2014 15:49:51 GMT
The Invitation to Tender for the Great Western franchise sets out the DfT and TfL position about ticketing on FGW / Crossrail *prior* to yesterday's announcement of the extension. I must give due credit to Matt Dickinson who dug the info out on another forum.
This is what the ITT says in respect of ITSO and Oyster smart ticketing.
CPAY - contactless payment for National Rail network
ITSO - Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation
CTOC - Crossrail Train Operating Company
You will note the requirement for smartcard inter operability for the Crossrail TOC. The basic premise in the above requirements is a good one but elsewhere in the ITT there is NO requirement for an ITSO based system on FGW to provide a PAYG form of product. More detail on ITSO on FGW below.
We must wait to see what Government decides to do with the FGW franchise process and what DfT / TfL determine about the ticketing requirements for Twyford and Reading.
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Post by melikepie on Mar 28, 2014 16:46:22 GMT
I think branch lines will stay with the next GW operator
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 18:21:23 GMT
2 trains an hour from Reading which are no quicker than the current service - hardly a Metro service!
Pointless tokenism!
XF
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Post by melikepie on Mar 28, 2014 18:50:31 GMT
It will still benefit customers in betweeen
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Post by sawb on Mar 28, 2014 21:50:59 GMT
So Crossrail was going to Reading, then it wasn't, now it is again. Why do I get the feeling we haven't heard the last of this.... The Great Western operator (whoever it may be by then) will probably try to pull a fast one by not stopping HSTs/IEs at Reading so that people can't use Oyster PAYG. Can't imagine that going down too well, and can't see how you could stop the average Jo doing it, unless you had dedicated platforms at Paddington for local services and dedicated platforms for HSTs/IEs! Given the DfT are looking to enter into a further direct award franchise to FGW, beyond those already in place, then you can rest assured it will probably still be FGW come 2019. We need to remember that the South East Flexible Ticketing (SEFT) project is looking to provide smart ticketing across most of the old Network South East area long before 2019. It may not be Oyster but ITSO spec cards are capable of use on the Oyster kit right across Greater London. I expect the DfT will require FGW and SWT to adopt ITSO / SEFT kit and that will be that. I really cannot see the DfT allowing Great Western to do anything to reduce the number of stops by express trains at Reading. There would be massive discontent and huge political fall out for the Tories who hold many seats in and around Reading. We are only talking about a half hourly service to Reading on Crossrail which is incapable of taking up the sort of demand that would arise in the peaks if fewer HST/IEPs stopped. I suspect people will experiment with it in the early days and will be put off by the longer journey times given the majority of e/b Crossrail trains at Paddington will be starting empty there anyway. I do expect Crossrail from Reading will be popular but people aren't going to stand for 50 minutes when they can stand for half that time and be in Paddington. The problem is that there has been no announcement of extra trains being ordered for this extension which rather suggests Crossrail will just have to work their fleet a bit harder. Therefore there will be no scope for an expansion in services. Nonetheless one of the Reading MPs is already demanding a phase 2 to Crossrail to Reading with more trains, semi fast and fast workings and trains with toilets and catering so they can "compete" with FGW. He wants to see "price based competition" between FGW and Crossrail. I'll refrain from being rude at this point. I thought toilets on Crossrail was a given? Did there not used to be/is there not still a requirement for trains that are used on journeys of over one hour to have toilets? I'm not suggesting that Reading/Maidenhead to Abbey Wood/Shenfield will be a journey that lots of people do, but doubtless there will be a few hundred at least per year! |
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Post by phil on Mar 28, 2014 22:26:48 GMT
I thought toilets on Crossrail was a given? Did there not used to be/is there not still a requirement for trains that are used on journeys of over one hour to have toilets? I'm not suggesting that Reading/Maidenhead to Abbey Wood/Shenfield will be a journey that lots of people do, but doubtless there will be a few hundred at least per year! There isn't and never has been any requirement to have toilets on trains regardless of the journey they might be undertaking. Indeed it took a remarkably long time before toilets became the norm on long distance trains and even then thanks to then prevailing preference for compartments, many trains only had facilities for first class ticket holders. it was only really after WW1 when the provision of gangway connections took off did most long distance trains get them. Suburban trains generally never had them and it was only with the arrival of DMUs that toilets started to feature on rural routes. While it is true that most BR outer suburban and main line EMUs got toilets there were plenty of suburban units that didn't These days however toilets are even more of a nusence for opperators than they used to be thanks to the requirement for at least one of the said toilets to be fully accessable by the disabled (not an unreasonable thing in itself but that does mean the loss of 1/3rd of a carriage) plus the fact that people (not least track workers) don't like being sprayed with sewage so retention tanks are needed. Then you have the fact that the tanks need to be emptyied regularly and the fresh water tanks topped up regularly both of which add time when it comes to preparing the units or performing fast turn around at termini That said I can understand why it might be desirable for Crossrail to have them given the decision to go out to Reading - however having a small sub fleet with toilets is undesirable when it comes to planning stock diagrams, etc. Its also worth noting none of the units used by Grater Anglia in the London area have toilets and neither do the 376 version of the Electrostar opperated by South Eastern on their Dartford line, nor do the 455s used by Southern out to Dorking or SWTs 455s that get to Guildford. |
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Post by phil on Mar 28, 2014 22:48:41 GMT
2 trains an hour from Reading which are no quicker than the current service - hardly a Metro service! Pointless tokenism! XF I think you are missing the point. At no stage has there been any intention to provide a "metro" (as TfL describe it) Crossrail service to Reading so I don't know why you think it would be otherwise. The 5 reasons for going to Reading are It eliminates / reduces the need for lots of sidings at Maidenhead to turn back all Crossrail trains there. It enables connections to be made (from say West Drayton to Oxford or Hayes to Swindon) without having to circulate via Paddington. Reading has a new depot capable of servicing Crossrail stock. It solves the problem of what to do about the service gap created between Maidenhead and Reading which would be awkward to resolve satisfactorily by other means. It makes the politicians look good. Given the above, coupled with the area it passes through it should be no surprise that Crossrail are not proposing to increase service provision by sticking with 2tph I believe it means that they only need 2 extra units to be added to the train order. Moreover in future years it looks like they will have to share the relief lines with up to 4tph from Heathrow, plus the significant freight flows to Acton yard plus a few residual semi-fast trains from Paddington all this means that there simply won't be the scope for much of an increase - though I am aware there has been talk of 4tph in the peaks (when freight won't be there to complicate things) - but whether there are enough units for this remains a open question. Besides Crossrail themselves are quite clear - they will NOT be out to poach current FGW customers - the intention is more to complement FGW's fast services with connections into said services at key stations. So if you were hoping for out and out competition, I'm sorry to disappoint you - that has never and will never be on the cards. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 29, 2014 0:08:04 GMT
Possibly now irrelevant, but the first map is at least four years out of date - National Express East Anglia is now Abellio Greater Anglia, whilst the East London Line is still shown as having a bus replacement! NRE being as reliable as ever there... |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 29, 2014 0:27:40 GMT
Its also worth noting none of the units used by Grater Anglia in the London area have toilets The only units operated by Greater Anglia without toilets are the class 315s. Classes 317, 321, 360 and 379 all have them. |
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Post by melikepie on Mar 29, 2014 1:59:50 GMT
If the service to Maidenhead is going to be intense, what will happen during engineering works to both operators?
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