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Post by d7666 on Feb 28, 2014 17:41:03 GMT
See link below QUOTE .... Alongside new modern signalling systems, the new trains will help LU meet the challenge of London's growing population - set to increase from 8.4 million today to around 10m by 2030 - by increasing capacity on: the Central line by 25 per cent; .... .... New Tube for London programme will see approximately: 100 trains for the Central line; .... END www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29683.aspxAnd linked from within that : (b) Central line: a 25 per cent increase in line capacity can be achieved with new generation trains and re-signalling to operate peak services at 33tph by 2030; Although the Central does already operate a short burst equivalent to 34 TPH . I posted parallel data under W&C line; the other lines I'm less interested in, so didn't. -- Nick |
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Post by nickf on Feb 28, 2014 18:06:35 GMT
I see that the TfL release mentions that the new trains will be air cooled. I don't quite understand this - are the present trains not air cooled? I must be misunderstanding something here.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 28, 2014 19:34:08 GMT
I see that the TfL release mentions that the new trains will be air cooled. I don't quite understand this - are the present trains not air cooled? I must be misunderstanding something here. I assume they mean air conditioned ? -- Nick |
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Post by nickf on Feb 28, 2014 19:51:24 GMT
I see that the TfL release mentions that the new trains will be air cooled. I don't quite understand this - are the present trains not air cooled? I must be misunderstanding something here. I assume they mean air conditioned ? -- Nick That must be it - I was being too literal! |
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Post by londonstuff on Feb 28, 2014 21:20:29 GMT
If they were to be air conditioned in the common sense of the word, surely they'd have said that - are they actually alluding to the fact that it might be some sort of forced air cooling akin to the Victoria line on the '09 stock at the moment?
Also, I thought that the Central line was different to the rest of the stock on different lines - I'm not sure of the technical details but they're not compatible with any of the rest of the lines are they? They're completely separate at the moment - would there be modifications to the trains or the track to make a one-size-fits-all system work?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 28, 2014 21:50:14 GMT
I thought that the Central line was different to the rest of the stock on different lines - I'm not sure of the technical details but they're not compatible with any of the rest of the lines are they? They're completely separate at the moment - would there be modifications to the trains or the track to make a one-size-fits-all system work? The Central Line's 1992 stock can't work on the Picc and Bakerloo, but mainly because it's eight cars and the other lines can only take six or seven. The positive rail is higher on the Central because the tunnels were built to a slightly different profile, but "high-lift" shoegear historically allowed trains to interchange - as used by 1967 stock being transferred to and from the Hainault branch to augment the 1960 stock (the branch had been automated as a pilot for the Victoria) Historically the Picc, the Central, and the Bakerloo have often used the same stock: Standard stock (pre-1938) has been used on all three lines, as has 1959 stock. 1962 stock, almost identictal to 1959 stock, has been used on Picc and Central, and whilst 1938 stock was used on the Picc and Bakerloo but never on the Central, the almost identical 1935 stock has been. W&C stock is 1992 stock - essentially half a Central Line train. |
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Post by rsdworker on Feb 28, 2014 22:20:21 GMT
W&C trains can be transfered to and from central line if needed - there was testing before they was transfered to W%C in mid 90s
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 28, 2014 23:15:02 GMT
W&C trains can be transfered to and from central line if needed - there was testing before they was transfered to W%C in mid 90s The W&C stock was delivered to the Central and tested thereon - the trains used a different electrification system to the previous Southern railway-era stock and couldn't be tested on the Drain until conversion was complete. But trains can only be got in and out of the Drain with a big crane - even the lift has gone now - it's not something that could be done as easily as 1967 stock used to get between the Vic and the Central . I think the two stocks have been modified in different ways over the last twenty years, so are no longer interchangeable |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 1, 2014 0:05:39 GMT
Yes, the 92 stock on the Central line is probably hundreds of modifications ahead of those on the W&C. Mainly to do with ATP / ATO, but there are other operational modifications too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 0:29:14 GMT
The W&C stock are 92s with no ATP, trip cocks, as basic as you can get, they can't be sent back to the Central Line without massive upgrades, they are essentially totally different stock.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 1, 2014 7:55:01 GMT
How many trains does the Central line have now, not trains in service, but the total number in the fleet ?
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Post by superteacher on Mar 1, 2014 9:04:21 GMT
How many trains does the Central line have now, not trains in service, but the total number in the fleet ? 85 X 8 cars. Not sure how many, if any, are long term stopped. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 1, 2014 11:16:39 GMT
I see that the TfL release mentions that the new trains will be air cooled. I don't quite understand this - are the present trains not air cooled? I must be misunderstanding something here. I assume they mean air conditioned ? -- Nick The release says: Which to me suggests that yes, the new trains will have what we generally refer to as Air Conditioning. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 11:38:11 GMT
I think if it was air conditioning they'd have said so, I would assume that air cooling is something different that doesn't work quite as well but because they've not explained what it is most people will think it is air conditioning.
Air conditioning works by pumping the heat outside which is fine if the its a building or a train in a big cut-and-cover style tunnel but not such a great idea if you're in a narrow deep level "tube".
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 1, 2014 11:47:47 GMT
I agree with what you are saying, but they are claiming the S Stock is "air cooled" at present, suggesting the same system will be used on the new stuff. We know that S Stock has common all-garden air con.
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Post by domh245 on Mar 1, 2014 11:53:39 GMT
I suspect that it will be a forced air system, but it might be the case that the air will be cooled to a lower temperature before entering the end passenger compartment. However Hitachi claim that they can do a full blown air conditioning system in a very small space. It was in one of their promotional videos, here
at about 1:10
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Post by Chris M on Mar 1, 2014 12:31:05 GMT
I expect they are just being deliberately non-specific at this point. If they just say "air cooled" then different manufacturers can offer their different for evaluation. If only one company reckons air conditioning in a deep tube is possible, and they make air conditioning a requirement, then you don't have much of a competition and that manufacturer knows they can charge almost what they like.
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 1, 2014 12:36:34 GMT
The S Stock has the cooling equipment in the roof.
Not possible on the proposed trains.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 1, 2014 13:28:59 GMT
Unless the air is recirculated cooled air they will always have problems with tunnel dust blocking filters. I think this happened with D stock when the filters became blocked.
At Aldgate East the station had ventilation with an intake in the passageway under the road and an outtake in the tunnel below and the station was filthy. After eight hours there you sneezed into a hankie and it was black. Mile End and the old Monument were the same.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Mar 1, 2014 14:32:46 GMT
How many trains does the Central line have now, not trains in service, but the total number in the fleet ? 85 X 8 cars. Not sure how many, if any, are long term stopped. Thanks super teacher, so it's only 15 extra trains for the Central Line, still any new train for this line will be better that the 1992 stock which are in a very poor state, dull lighting, dirty, and shabby. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 1, 2014 15:06:26 GMT
The W&C stock are 92s with no ATP, trip cocks, as basic as you can get, they can't be sent back to the Central Line without massive upgrades, they are essentially totally different stock. The differences and the effort and cost are all well understood. It may yet happen. That is all I can say. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 1, 2014 15:10:56 GMT
I expect they are just being deliberately non-specific at this point. Indeed. I did answer up thread that I read air cooled in media speak as air conditioned in public speak, but leaving a way open alternative potential solutions leads to vague wording. People should not take media releases of this type literally word for word and then wonder in 10 years time why it did not happen. It will be the tender issue, the detailed specification, and the responses, that need word by word dissection. The other thing to bear in mind during tender, there is always a possibility of a non-compliant bid, this is allowed, and provide nothing at all. Or something else that was not otherwise thought of. -- Nick |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 20:31:40 GMT
It seems like the existing Central Line trains were poorly built. Replacing a train that's 'only' 22 years old seems like we've got poor value for money.
The Piccadilly and District Line trains are twice as old and for the most part seem to be running fine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2014 21:04:20 GMT
Well at least the 1992's lasted longer than the 1983's! (the 1983's only ran for a shorter period between 1983 and 1998 - around 15 years).
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Post by domh245 on Mar 19, 2014 21:20:28 GMT
Its a shame, because they were built with some good features (windows of a decent size) mostly from the 1986 prototypes, but they do seem to have been built on the cheap, and some fundamental aspects of the designs appear to have not been that well thought out (such as preventing water ingress and the like)
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Post by Tom on Mar 20, 2014 14:11:22 GMT
Central line: a 25 per cent increase in line capacity can be achieved with new generation trains and re-signalling to operate peak services at 33tph by 2030; Although the Central does already operate a short burst equivalent to 34 TPH . I posted parallel data under W&C line; the other lines I'm less interested in, so didn't. -- Nick Is there a short 34 TPH burst? I thought the most was 30TPH, and then only for one hour in each peak in one direction only. One day we might even see the original 36 TPH as specified in the 1990s resignalling. Then again maybe not. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 9:22:25 GMT
85 X 8 cars. Not sure how many, if any, are long term stopped. Thanks super teacher, so it's only 15 extra trains for the Central Line, still any new train for this line will be better that the 1992 stock which are in a very poor state, dull lighting, dirty, and shabby. I actually quite like travelling in '92 stock- even the commentary is good IMO! |
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Post by danwoodhouse on Apr 11, 2014 19:53:36 GMT
so they're already thinking about new trains for the Central Line?
seems like only yesterday that I took my first ever ride on a 1992 stock train in the easter holiday of 1993 from Stratford - Bethnal Green
<<Rincew1nd: "their" changed to "they're">>
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Post by d7666 on Apr 13, 2014 15:17:57 GMT
Since WTT67 came in last year yes, 34 TPH rate, but not for the full hour.
WTT65 and WTT66 actually dropped one of peak flows - I forget which - from 30 to 29 TPH because of dwell time. That was I think put back to 30 TPH with WTT67, but at the same time there put in a 105 second headway burst on the morning westbound peak. It works too. It is not sustained - nor is it sustainable - for long periods - I need to keep looking it up but it is something like 34 minutes of 105 sec headways starting soon after 08:00 IIRC.
105 sec headway is a rate of 34.2 TPH.
--
Nick
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Post by superteacher on Apr 13, 2014 20:01:23 GMT
I wonder if they could sustain 34 tph for an hour? I've also heard rumours that the eastbound evening peak may see a period of more then 30 tph when the next timetable comes out.
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