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Post by graeme186 on Oct 8, 2013 22:04:54 GMT
Following being detrained from T404 1839 Aldgate-Chesham at Willesden Green at 1940, arrived at Wembley Park via the NB Jubilee at 1955 to see T416 1708 Aldgate to Chesham stalled over route from Platform 1 to the flyunder to Neasden Depot. Assume that T416 was the same train that failed at King's Cross earlier from where it had worked empty to Wembley Park. Offending S8 was 21109/110.
T416 was eventually worked back into Platform 1 at 2015 allowing two stranded trains south of Wembley Park to work into Platform 2. First of these trains was T454 which I then travelled on to Harrow which by now was running 80 minutes late.
Travelling to Rickmansworth, I like many passengers tried to board the 2024 Aylesbury train. Impossible to board - it was a 2-Car DMU carrying passengers diverted to Marylebone from Baker Street.
Eventually re-caught T404 at Harrow (it had re-entered passenger service at Wembley Park) which after a 20 min delay at Harrow waiting a driver, became an all stations service to Chesham arriving at Rickmansworth some 100 minutes late.
Some passengers at Harrow were complaining their journeys from the City had taken almost two hours. Some had taken the 182 bus from Wembley Park to Harrow as advised in order to resume their NB Met journey at Harrow where trains were reversing south to north.
With the forthcoming resignalling of the Met, would it not be a good idea to provide a facility whereby a defective train worked out of the City (particularly during the evening peak) could be reversed on the NB Line north of Baker Street back into Platform 1 and stabled out of the way?
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 8, 2013 22:28:22 GMT
Hi Graeme, good to hear from you albeit under difficult events.
Sounds like a bad evening. Many of my friends were complaining this evening.
The potential track alteration may be possible although at times of disruption the bay roads are used a lot to short trip city trains so it may add to the problems although I see your point. If only the S-N reversal from plat 3 was still an option....
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Post by uzairjubilee on Oct 8, 2013 22:52:25 GMT
Faulty train at KX AND at Wembley Park!? Not good. There have been severe delays on the Met for hours now!
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Post by rsdworker on Oct 8, 2013 23:46:23 GMT
i think the faulty train should been withdrawn and sent to depot straightaway after KX issues and i agree a stabling area to store out of service trains till its quieter time to remove faulty trains
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Post by Chris M on Oct 9, 2013 7:43:41 GMT
i think the faulty train should been withdrawn and sent to depot straightaway after KX issues It sounds like this is what the plan was, but it failed again en-route to the depot. It really does show the need for crossovers and cripple sidings still exists on a modern railway, although both are currently out of favour as they don't fit with the in vogue simplicity mantra.
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Post by rsdworker on Oct 9, 2013 10:11:14 GMT
well its important like other systems - example two bi direction lines if one is blocked then trains can go around the blockage - good examples of this - WMATA which uses single tracking often to bypass failed train or any issues or bypass the trackwork without blocking the line but few times lines has to suspend fully but this rare on WMATA
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Post by Chris M on Oct 9, 2013 12:05:06 GMT
Closer to home the DLR is also almost(?) fully bidi.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 9, 2013 14:52:09 GMT
i think the faulty train should been withdrawn and sent to depot straightaway after KX issues It sounds like this is what the plan was, but it failed again en-route to the depot. It really does show the need for crossovers and cripple sidings still exists on a modern railway, although both are currently out of favour as they don't fit with the in vogue simplicity mantra. In the bigger picture it all boils down to cost. The question is always going to be what price contingency as against cost of estimated failures and/or delays each year. Crossovers and sidings cost money even if they are unused, there is the initial outlay, usually a very expensive one off cost, but the real killer in a tight budget is the ongoing cost of routine maintenance which is hard to justify if an asset is idle most of the time. I have no doubt at all that the operating department would be overjoyed to have the utopian flexibility of unlimited spare track capacity, bidirectional signalling on all lines and even extra depots which would all make operations in a time of crisis far easier to handle. However, the more facilities the greater the initial outlay, the greater the maintenance cost and the more staff required to keep it all up to standard specification. More staff has its own costs such as the need for additional training resources etc. When money is tight one of the first things to suffer is spare capacity which gets longer maintenance intervals until it eventually falls into disuse through failing to meet the specification. Quite often the value of such facility can go unnoticed in good times when it is not required for long periods and is simply seen as an unnecessary drain on the budget. I would respectfully suggest that empty sidings and additional reversing points are not so much out of favour as they are unaffordable in an age where everything costs too much and the reasons for that are far beyond the scope of this thread. From an engineering viewpoint I'd have been overjoyed for ever more equipment to install and maintain but service efficiency costs just as service inefficiency costs and what is affordable lies somewhere between the two. Unfortunately the purse strings are not necessarily controlled by those who are best placed to properly judge the true costs of an efficient and reliable public service. That of course is another tin of worms well beyond the scope of this thread!
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Post by uzairjubilee on Oct 9, 2013 18:52:00 GMT
Are there anymore details on what happened exactly at KX? Did the train fail in the station, if so, which platform? Would be interesting to see what was done to try and get the faulty train away from the main section of the line.
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Post by trt on Oct 10, 2013 10:14:45 GMT
I would respectfully suggest that empty sidings and additional reversing points are not so much out of favour as they are unaffordable in an age where everything costs too much and the reasons for that are far beyond the scope of this thread. From an engineering viewpoint I'd have been overjoyed for ever more equipment to install and maintain but service efficiency costs just as service inefficiency costs and what is affordable lies somewhere between the two. Unfortunately the purse strings are not necessarily controlled by those who are best placed to properly judge the true costs of an efficient and reliable public service. That of course is another tin of worms well beyond the scope of this thread! It looks like, in the Bank redevelopment, that there is scope for a cripple siding on the approach to the old southbound platform.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 12:14:25 GMT
Are there anymore details on what happened exactly at KX? Did the train fail in the station, if so, which platform? Would be interesting to see what was done to try and get the faulty train away from the main section of the line. I was on that blooming faulty train! It was on the Westbound platform. We sat (well stood, as I never ever get a seat on the new trains)for about 10 mins with regular driver's announcements that there was a fault he was trying to rectify. I know nowt about the trains but seems like something to do with the air pressure/supply as a couple of carriages down they were fiddling with something and you could hear the hissing of air. Eventually they asked us to de-train and recommended going down to Ox Circus and back up to Baker St via the Bakerloo. The faulty train was eventually moved in danger mode or whatever it is called and crawled its way to Wembley at 10 mph. I was on the train behind it, so took the Jubilee at Finchley as I'd rather wait in the open at Wembley. Incidentally, my 1 train, 1 hour door to door commute took 2 hours and 6 trains! Was not a happy bunny when I finally got home.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 13:47:30 GMT
Out of curiosity I have a couple of questions...
1 - Given that there are sidings at Moorgate and points just east of Kings Cross would it not have been easier to reverse the train to Moorgate sidings for later recovery rather than the long slow track to Wembley?
2 - Rather than crawl a defective train at 10mph is it not possible to stick it in neutral and get a empty working train behind to push it along more speedily?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 10, 2013 15:31:38 GMT
I would imagine that both options would depend on the nature of the fault, and for option 1 the position of other trains. If it was something affecting just one of the cabs, no trains between the failed train and the crossover and space in Moorgate sidings then yes I suspect it would have been a good option. However I would guess that there would likely be a train just outside KX that would have needed moving as well (and possibly detraining before that).
Option 2 would also require the stock behind to be able to push out the one infront - can a C stock push an S stock (and vice versa)?
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Post by version3point1 on Oct 10, 2013 19:44:59 GMT
I would imagine that both options would depend on the nature of the fault, and for option 1 the position of other trains. If it was something affecting just one of the cabs, no trains between the failed train and the crossover and space in Moorgate sidings then yes I suspect it would have been a good option. However I would guess that there would likely be a train just outside KX that would have needed moving as well (and possibly detraining before that). Option 2 would also require the stock behind to be able to push out the one infront - can a C stock push an S stock (and vice versa)? They have the option to couple up and be assisted by A, C or D stock, but whether or not they can physically do so is another matter. It'd probably be a scenario they would like to avoid though. But the assisting train would have to be detrained, trip past signals to get closer, &c., &c. Many of the Main Line Burst problems that have been occurring recently are as a result of the ACMs receiving no traction current through the loss of shoes and then the train being situated in such a way where any shoes that do remain are not on juice, or where they are, the train just cannot get the power it requires. Once the compressors on the train cannot charge up, the speed of the main line air loss is almost immediate and it goes down a lot quicker than with other stocks. Cue the SAPBs. And if that happens over gaps when you're already missing shoes, good luck. With regards to air defects, S stocks are fairly simple to negotiate – split the main line pipe into two by isolating it in the middle, see if you can get the leading cab to charge up (as the trains can run on one compressor to at least get it moving), then there are a few isolations you then have to make in order to get forward movement. Similar but not, this was nearly the case with my train in July, where I had lost a large portion of posi shoes all along the right hand side of the train at Finchley Road on the south (they were taken off by a disused inductor rail). The TCMS however gave no indication of shoes having been damaged and a problem only became apparent when i was departing King's Cross, when the posi rail switches sides over to the driver's side, all the way until the home signals for Farringdon; I was unable to motor, and worried that I would stall between stations, I allowed the train to coast downhill into Farringdon before the air gauge immediately gave up the ghost, dropped to red and sat me down just metres from the stopping mark. The fact that the posi rail then moves back over to the other side for a few metres on the approach to Farringdon was my saving grace in the end as it allowed the ACMs to get some power back so I could get motors for a few seconds, but I could quite easily have stalled outside the station. I was also fortunate enough that once I'd detrained, I could work the train straight into Moorgate bay. I see what people are saying about reversing KX or main line shunt at Baker, but as a driver, I wouldn't really want to take the risk of then stalling in the city trying to get to a siding and then completely locking it down. I think getting North of Baker Street does make some sort of sense. Even if it stalled between there and Wembley, at least you could still maintain a service between Wembley and the branch lines to some degree.
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Post by version3point1 on Oct 10, 2013 19:52:50 GMT
1 - Given that there are sidings at Moorgate and points just east of Kings Cross would it not have been easier to reverse the train to Moorgate sidings for later recovery rather than the long slow track to Wembley? Not worth locking up the whole area if it then stalls across the points. Points = not-so-wonderful rail gaps. You want to be on current and be able to charge up the air. Gaps will not help this, and if you're missing shoes...! *cringes* Absolutely not. The driver of the assisting train cannot see the road ahead and relies on the driver in the leading cab of the defective train to tell him when to move. In the communications process, there will be a delay between you saying slow down or speed up and something to that effect actually happening, because as the driver of the defective train, you can't control that. And how about stopping? If you were going at speed and then the driver in the defective train for whatever reason has to initiate emergency brakes, what effect do you think that would have on both trains, let alone the coupling? Also, with the loss of air, the spring applied brakes will be on at least one half of the train. The assisting train is pushing through those SAPBs. The last thing you want is smoke or a fire to add to the mix.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 10, 2013 22:17:39 GMT
It looks like, in the Bank redevelopment, that there is scope for a cripple siding on the approach to the old southbound platform. If a stepplate junction were being built, then yes. But the constraints of the site (in particulat the proximity of other tunnels) means that "plug and drill" is the preferred method - remove the tunnel lining, fill with concrete, and drill through on the new alignment. (more or less what you would do if you'd put a screw hole in a wall in almost, but not quite, the right place - you need to fill the old hole before you can drill the new one next to it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 23:10:24 GMT
Not worth locking up the whole area if it then stalls across the points. Points = not-so-wonderful rail gaps. You want to be on current and be able to charge up the air. Gaps will not help this, and if you're missing shoes...! But is there not the same risk over the points heading into Baker Street in order to get the train to Wembley or is the track current arranged differently for points that are in constant use?
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Post by djlynch on Oct 15, 2013 23:52:53 GMT
well its important like other systems - example two bi direction lines if one is blocked then trains can go around the blockage - good examples of this - WMATA which uses single tracking often to bypass failed train or any issues or bypass the trackwork without blocking the line but few times lines has to suspend fully but this rare on WMATA Having personally experienced the frequency of services when WMATA is doing single tracking (or lack thereof--3 to 5 tph at most), I think that doing so unannounced on a weekday would result in dangerously overcrowded platforms very quickly.
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Post by rsdworker on Oct 16, 2013 8:04:41 GMT
yes - has be either reduced till its solved - WMATA always announce single tracking and number of trains depends on layout
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