Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 29, 2013 12:19:43 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Jul 29, 2013 16:19:53 GMT
About time too. However, I still think there should be some form of plaque actually in the station itself.
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Post by Chris W on Jul 29, 2013 18:43:35 GMT
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Jul 29, 2013 18:51:26 GMT
About time too. However, I still think there should be some form of plaque actually in the station itself. Agreed. I'm sure I read somewhere recently there is to be some form of memorial unveiled on the 40th anniversary within the station. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 19:55:14 GMT
Current plans are for TfL to unveil a plaque on the station next February, 39 years after that dreadful day. We wait to see if it happens.
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Post by sawb on Jul 29, 2013 21:04:59 GMT
First of all, apologies if my comments are, unintentionally, a little too morbid for this forum.
Whilst I fully agree that there should be a form of plaque or memorial actually in Moorgate station, where is there space to put something that people (thinking primarily about friends and relatives of those who died) to go to on future anniversaries to reflect, without impacting on operation of Moorgate station for everyone else? On a similar note, am I right in thinking that we're still waiting after (26 years this November) for a form of plaque or memorial at Kings Cross St Pancras for the Kings Cross fire victims? Surely, again you have the issue of where can you put such a memorial, so that friends and families of those who died can pay their respects on an annual basis, without impacting on the safe operation of the station?
Am I straying into a thread for the "Railway Ideas, Proposals and Suggestions" board here?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 29, 2013 21:19:21 GMT
First of all, apologies if my comments are, unintentionally, a little too morbid for this forum. Whilst I fully agree that there should be a form of plaque or memorial actually in Moorgate station, where is there space to put something that people (thinking primarily about friends and relatives of those who died) to go to on future anniversaries to reflect, without impacting on operation of Moorgate station for everyone else? On a similar note, am I right in thinking that we're still waiting after (26 years this November) for a form of plaque or memorial at Kings Cross St Pancras for the Kings Cross fire victims? Surely, again you have the issue of where can you put such a memorial, so that friends and families of those who died can pay their respects on an annual basis, without impacting on the safe operation of the station? Am I straying into a thread for the "Railway Ideas, Proposals and Suggestions" board here? There is already a plaque at Kings Cross. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 22:50:49 GMT
This very tragic accident will always be haunted by the fact it's cause was never established. Hopefully the memorial will help those who were affected by this event in a positive way.
One of the saddest days in London Underground's history!
Nigel
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 30, 2013 3:48:47 GMT
This very tragic accident will always be haunted by the fact it's cause was never established. Hopefully the memorial will help those who were affected by this event in a positive way. One of the saddest days in London Underground's history! Nigel A strange comment (no cause) when considering that the finger was always pointed at the motorman. Pretty much my very first working task at Moorgate Met in 1977 shortly after joining LT was running cable as part of the gang installing additional FRLs in the terminal platforms. This was a measure taken as a result of the Northern line incident. Much was told to me by other members of the gang who had been working on the Northern City line in preparation for the handover to BR prior to the incident. A couple of years later an engineering colleague, formerly a motorman, said some interesting things about the way that the particular stock was operated by the drivers and guards on approach to Moorgate. As a result I have always held the opinion that the full story of what really happened was probably 'known' but never proven and that the motorman was a convenient subject upon which to lay the blame. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 7:47:37 GMT
This very tragic accident will always be haunted by the fact it's cause was never established. Hopefully the memorial will help those who were affected by this event in a positive way. One of the saddest days in London Underground's history! Nigel A strange comment (no cause) when considering that the finger was always pointed at the motorman. Pretty much my very first working task at Moorgate Met in 1977 shortly after joining LT was running cable as part of the gang installing additional FRLs in the terminal platforms. This was a measure taken as a result of the Northern line incident. Much was told to me by other members of the gang who had been working on the Northern City line in preparation for the handover to BR prior to the incident. A couple of years later an engineering colleague, formerly a motorman, said some interesting things about the way that the particular stock was operated by the drivers and guards on approach to Moorgate. As a result I have always held the opinion that the full story of what really happened was probably 'known' but never proven and that the motorman was a convenient subject upon which to lay the blame. Whilst your comments do reflect the the concenous of opinion at the time the official report did not reach a definative conclusion on the cause of the accident and specifically why the motorman drove the train into the wall. Nigel |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 30, 2013 9:17:32 GMT
A strange comment (no cause) when considering that the finger was always pointed at the motorman. Pretty much my very first working task at Moorgate Met in 1977 shortly after joining LT was running cable as part of the gang installing additional FRLs in the terminal platforms. This was a measure taken as a result of the Northern line incident. Much was told to me by other members of the gang who had been working on the Northern City line in preparation for the handover to BR prior to the incident. A couple of years later an engineering colleague, formerly a motorman, said some interesting things about the way that the particular stock was operated by the drivers and guards on approach to Moorgate. As a result I have always held the opinion that the full story of what really happened was probably 'known' but never proven and that the motorman was a convenient subject upon which to lay the blame. Whilst your comments do reflect the the concenous of opinion at the time the official report did reach a conclusion as empty the accident occured and specifically why the motorman drove the train into the wall. Nigel Try as I might I can make no sense of your comment, it simply is not a coherent sentence, perhaps you'll reread it and then correct it to be so. The motorman was blamed but IMHO there was no evidence of it, simply conjecture and speculation based upon dubious 'facts' regarding the blood alcohol content of the partly decomposed corpse. Almost 40 years on I believe that had the incident happened today an enquiry would reach a different conclusion based upon modern forensics and a very different in depth approach to seeking the truth. The 'evidence' has never been enough to convince me that the motorman deliberately drove himself and his passengers to oblivion that morning. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 30, 2013 10:26:37 GMT
The motorman was blamed but IMHO there was no evidence of it, simply conjecture and speculation based upon dubious 'facts' regarding the blood alcohol content of the partly decomposed corpse. Almost 40 years on I believe that had the incident happened today an enquiry would reach a different conclusion based upon modern forensics and a very different in depth approach to seeking the truth. The 'evidence' has never been enough to convince me that the motorman deliberately drove himself and his passengers to oblivion that morning. Surely, either the brakes failed or the driver was, in some way, responsible. My only recollection is from the news at the time but I definitely remember that: 1) The driver was newly qualified. 2) He was said to be very happy to be starting in his new role. 3) Witnesses on the platform said that he appeared to be staring vacantly as the train passed. There was some speculation that he had entered into a trance like state - either hypnotised by some regular sound or visual effect of the trains motion or becoming overwhelmed by a sudden realisation of his responsibility - but it could never be anything more than speculation. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 30, 2013 11:51:48 GMT
My only recollection is from the news at the time but I definitely remember that: 1) The driver was newly qualified. According to the official report (para 21) he had been with London Transport for six years, had been a qualified driver for over a year, and had transfered to the Northern City line over a month before the accident. There is insufficient evidence for any suggestion as to the role of the driver to go beyond mere speculation. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 13:56:27 GMT
Whilst your comments do reflect the the concenous of opinion at the time the official report did reach a conclusion as empty the accident occured and specifically why the motorman drove the train into the wall. Nigel Try as I might I can make no sense of your comment, it simply is not a coherent sentence, perhaps you'll reread it and then correct it to be so. The motorman was blamed but IMHO there was no evidence of it, simply conjecture and speculation based upon dubious 'facts' regarding the blood alcohol content of the partly decomposed corpse. Almost 40 years on I believe that had the incident happened today an enquiry would reach a different conclusion based upon modern forensics and a very different in depth approach to seeking the truth. The 'evidence' has never been enough to convince me that the motorman deliberately drove himself and his passengers to oblivion that morning. My comment was pants I wrote from my iPad and must of for distracted as there were lots of typos! I hope it is more coherent now? Nigel |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 30, 2013 13:59:40 GMT
According to the official report (para 21) he had been with London Transport for six years, had been a qualified driver for over a year, and had transfered to the Northern City line over a month before the accident. Interesting. As I said, I only remember the news coverage at the time. I'm sure they said he was newly qualified. It was one of the things that was quoted when they were talking about his possible state of mind. Of course, knowing the press they probably got confused between his transfer to the line and qualifying as a driver. Well, unless the brakes failed it's very hard to see how the crash could not have been caused by inaction on the part of the driver. |
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Post by southfieldschris on Jul 30, 2013 14:29:57 GMT
Just to go back to the original subject of a memorial - I appreciate that everyone is different but I can't empathise with the sentiment behind memorials at accident sites. My father died as a result of an accident, and the last thing I would ever have wanted would be a memorial where it happened; not good feelings. I go to visit the spot where his ashes are buried and remember him and happy memories of his life that way. I really wouldn't want to see his memorial at the site of the accident which ended his life.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 30, 2013 16:33:53 GMT
Well, unless the brakes failed it's very hard to see how the crash could not have been caused by inaction on the part of the driver. But the point I was making was that there is no conclusive evidence to indicate whether that inaction was deliberate or whether he was incapacitated in some way. lessons have been learned and, whatever the driver did or did not do on that day, Moorgate Control should make a recurrence impossible. Similar questions are being asked about the events at Santiago de Compostela last week - as the driver survived in that case hopefully some answers will be forthcoming as to whether he was helpless, careless or reckless. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 30, 2013 17:49:34 GMT
With the unveiling of the memorial I cannot help but feel that phrases such as "driving to oblivion" are not really appropriate at this moment in time.
Please can we, for now, stick to discussing the memorial.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 30, 2013 21:07:08 GMT
Just to go back to the original subject of a memorial - I appreciate that everyone is different but I can't empathise with the sentiment behind memorials at accident sites. My father died as a result of an accident, and the last thing I would ever have wanted would be a memorial where it happened; not good feelings. I go to visit the spot where his ashes are buried and remember him and happy memories of his life that way. I really wouldn't want to see his memorial at the site of the accident which ended his life. I totally see your point. Everybody's different, I suppose. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 30, 2013 21:20:39 GMT
Why Does The Memorial Have Initial Capitals Everywhere?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 30, 2013 21:59:26 GMT
Why Does The Memorial Have Initial Capitals Everywhere? Good point. Not sure how important such conventions are on a public memorial, but it is a bit odd. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 6:11:33 GMT
iif this memorial helps some that suffered a loss due to this tragedy that is a good thing and let's just let it be!
Nigel
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Jul 31, 2013 6:34:39 GMT
This subject I find very disturbing as the Driver Newson's family have suffered for years not knowing the reason for the incident. The Family were friends of my Mother so I know how they were affected. So it can be imagined how the erection of the Memorial has brought back memories for the present family members.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 6:47:25 GMT
This subject I find very disturbing as the Driver Newson's family have suffered for years not knowing the reason for the incident. The Family were friends of my Mother so I know how they were affected. So it can be imagined how the erection of the Memorial has brought back memories for the present family members. I can appreciate where you are coming from however for others affected by this event it might help, however grief is a strong emotion that effects people in many ways. Nigel |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 31, 2013 6:49:04 GMT
Try as I might I can make no sense of your comment, it simply is not a coherent sentence, perhaps you'll reread it and then correct it to be so. The motorman was blamed but IMHO there was no evidence of it, simply conjecture and speculation based upon dubious 'facts' regarding the blood alcohol content of the partly decomposed corpse. Almost 40 years on I believe that had the incident happened today an enquiry would reach a different conclusion based upon modern forensics and a very different in depth approach to seeking the truth. The 'evidence' has never been enough to convince me that the motorman deliberately drove himself and his passengers to oblivion that morning. My comment was pants I wrote from my iPad and must of for distracted as there were lots of typos! I hope it is more coherent now? Nigel Sadly not! Just exactly does "and must of for distracted" mean? I have no time for such things as IPADs myself, mobile phones with predictive text were a step too far for me so I have never progressed beyond a Nokia 5000 and have no intention of accessing the internet from anything smaller than a laptop! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2013 11:15:36 GMT
I plan to go with my mum next week to pay respects to my uncle whom died in the crash.
I personally never met him, but I feel its long overdue that a memorial should be in place.
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Post by John Tuthill on Dec 9, 2013 12:03:28 GMT
It's a tenuous link and one that only those in the know might find-1938 stock, but 5 cars? I don't know. Or is it a case of people just wanting a memorial for the loved ones? Look how long it took to get a memorial for the Bethan Green disaster? RIP |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Dec 9, 2013 14:05:19 GMT
The train was formed of 2 x 3 car 1938 stock units.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 22:07:53 GMT
The London Underground memorial to the disastrous accident was unveiled by The Lord Mayor of London, and dedicated by the Archdeacon of London, today 28 February, on the 39th anniversary of the disaster . It is inset on the external wall of the Moorgate station building in Moor Place. linklink |
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