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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 20:39:57 GMT
I recently won an auction on eBay for a unique one off hand drawn London Underground map. The map is 16 inches long and 9 inches wide. The description that the listing had is below: "In 1937 London Transport announced a scheme for the expansion and modernisation of the Underground network called the New Works Programme. Work on this was halted by the Second World War. After the war in 1948 London Transport was nationalised and the New Works Programme was superseded by a new report, the London Plan Working Party in 1949. This map is from that time and shows a proposed new line from Wimbledon to Debden. This line was partly followed for the Victoria Line in 1968. There is also a proposed new extension from Elephant & Castle to New Cross, but that was never built." It looks like it is a Beck map as he was the only one commisioned at the time to draw tube maps. If it is Beck prototype then it would be priceless. If anyone knows anything about this map your comments would be appreciated. The person who had the map said that they found it in a box at a garage sale years ago with some other railway ephemera. Link to pictures is below. www.flickr.com/photos/94509615@N03/
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Mar 30, 2013 21:22:30 GMT
How fascinating. What a find. Note it also shows a proposed extension linking the ELL to the Northern City. Also that the intermediate station between Elephant and Castle and Camberwell is called "Walworth" It seems to date after the abandonment of the New Works so after 1948/9. Addison Rd was renamed Olympia in 1946. Walham Grn was renamed Fulham Broadway in 1952 so it is probabl;y after this date. Soiuth Acton lost its service in 1959 so it is before then. 1952-1959,then.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 21:30:56 GMT
That sounds about right. I am surprised that I have never seen or read about such a map. I should contact the LT Museum to see if they know anything about Beck working on such a map.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 9:16:33 GMT
It shows Hatch End as for Pinner, so pre 1956 (when the suffix was removed).
The London Plan of 1949 had quite a number of proposals, so it would seem be somewhat after that, once LT had come up with a more realistic idea of what might go forward (Route C, which became the Victoria Line, I think emerged as a priority quite quickly), so I would suggest it represents early-mid 1950s thinking of what might come - and while it is in the Beck style, it has a number of differences compared to standard maps of the period (beyond those needed for extensions) - e.g. treatment of the Central Line west end.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 11:53:42 GMT
Might be worth dropping an email to Ken Garland. He spent a lot of time with Beck researching his book, wondering if Beck ever mentioned anything to him? If anyone would know about it he probably would.
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 31, 2013 11:57:40 GMT
@pritpal - what you have there is a unique historical document showing LT thinking on planning at the midpoint between the London Plan and the Baron Committee. Nothing like it has been published hitherto and there's clearly nothing like it in the LT archives. I do urge you very strongly to show it to the LT Museum; sell, or even donate, it to them if they will take it. [Yes, I know you've just paid good money for it, but your heirs and executors may not realise what you have got, and given the nature of the physical document itself, it will require very careful conservation to ensure that colours don't fade and paper acidity doesn't cause it to become brittle]. Donation or sale would be a noble deed for the future!
You haven't been able to find out anything about the document's provenance?
I agree with etr220 that earlier rather than later in the '50s is likely - by 1958, the closure of the S Acton branch was public, and the Met truncation at Amersham beginning to be planned.
On the detail of the map, I notice that there is a proposed station at Bruton Street and that the GN&C to ELL link revives the Met's 1912/13 proposals.
Graham Hewett
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 31, 2013 12:01:27 GMT
@pritpal - sorry this crossed with your last post. Consulting Ken Garland would be an excellent idea. I guess he might be equally in favour of securing its long term future.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 13:11:06 GMT
I will be in the UK in July, that would be a perfect time to show it to the Museum. Nothing about the document's provenance yet?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 31, 2013 13:28:20 GMT
I'm working on it.. I have seen quite a lot of similar stuff that I worked through for the Northern Heights signalling - I will up date as and when I can, bear in mind that it may be someone's doodling in the days before computers!
I have several thousand images to go through, if I find a match on the handwriting - as I have about 60 years worth of stuff imaged (not comprehensive and not specifically about mapping) - I will report back.
I will say, if it were a Design Office job, it would most likely have a drawing number - and I have photographs of stuff that Beck would have drawn in his 'day job'. Can't promise anything, but I'll see what I can see.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 19:09:47 GMT
Having had another look ...
I notice "Queens Park West Kilburn" - was that ever the official name of Queen's Park? When did Arsenal loose its '(Highbury Hill)' suffix? Was 'light blue' ever used for the Piccadilly line?
The new 'proto-Victoria' line seems to have been connected to, and is the same colour, as the (extended) Northern City line - as if they were intended to be one line (however practical that might have been). And the NC has an extra station 'Highbury Fields'. The Victoria Line name seems to have originated in 1955, about when the Victoria - Walthamstow Central route appears to have been finalised.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 19:25:19 GMT
I never noticed the above points, good spotting. All very interesting and adds a little bit more mystery to the map.
On another side note I have a Piccadilly Line Carriage map dated 12.76 which has the line open up to Hatton Cross and shows a dashed line as under construction to Heathrow Central with the bus service box under Hounslow Wwest as on the pocket maps.
Was this map ever used on the trains or was this a prototype? Picture of the map at the same link above.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 31, 2013 20:09:00 GMT
I'm sure I remember those Picc in-car maps from late 76/early 77, when I was first in London.
The stations shown as "Highbury Fields" on the mystery map is surely Highbury & Islington
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 31, 2013 20:10:27 GMT
Was this map ever used on the trains or was this a prototype? Picture of the map at the same link above. Yes, this was certainly used on trains in this form.
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Post by mikebuzz on Apr 1, 2013 18:36:53 GMT
Is this official or just an enthusiast's scribblings? There seem to be far too many new stations in places but I guess it might represent alternative proposals for potential stations. Bakerloo does a dog leg northwards to Old Kent road, the new line maybe does too at Islington, the NCL-ELL link is a real dog leg.
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Post by grahamhewett on Apr 1, 2013 20:40:34 GMT
The interesting and v difficult to answer question is what this map is for? Any internal use within LT would surely comprise a more engineering-based document, but if for external distribution, what would be the occasion for that? In the likely timeframe of c1952-c1958, there were no obvious public studies which would have called for such a map. Any informed guesses?
GH
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 1, 2013 22:29:59 GMT
Chorley Wood & Chenies is a real rogue. The Chenies part was dropped in the 1930s.
Old Kent Road does not need to be such a dog leg as the road runs to within half a mile of New Cross Gate.
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Post by abe on Apr 2, 2013 12:07:00 GMT
I wrote a detailed critique of this map for someone else whilst it was on eBay - here it is:
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 2, 2013 13:00:17 GMT
The interesting and v difficult to answer question is what this map is for? Any internal use within LT would surely comprise a more engineering-based document, but if for external distribution, what would be the occasion for that? In the likely timeframe of c1952-c1958, there were no obvious public studies which would have called for such a map. Any informed guesses? GH Not every internal map would necessarily be purely engineering based. For example, it could be an introductory map as part of a high-level overview/introduction for management - a sort of "here's how it would look on the tube map". Having read the detailed analysis I don't think this is what it is, rather it seems likely that it's a fantasy/blue sky thinking map by someone on the periphery of the projects team. Some of the very close inter-station distances suggest to me as a misinterpretation of alternative locations, and perhaps the Old Kent Road is similar - a misinterpretation of alternative routings as a single line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 2, 2013 13:01:04 GMT
In the 1950s, continuing east to make an interchange with the Central line might have seemed sensible for the sake of another mile of double tunnel. What is strange is that I can find no record of such a proposal, I'm sure I've seen this proposed before (as an alternative to Chelney in this area) the Old Kent Road is not on the alignment of the A202 between Peckham High Street and New Cross, and the line would have to make a northwards loop in order to serve it. If the Bakerloo extension were to have followed the line of the A202 and A2 (Queens Road, New Cross Road) it would have served NX and NXG sequentially (and would also, surely, have had an interchange with the SLL at Queens Road Peckham) as it is shown as serving NX and NXG on separate branches I would conclude that it would approach them from the north, not the west. Such an approach would indeed require a loop to the north, crossing the Old Kent Road somewhere near where Silwood junction is now located, and then joining the ELL somewhere near Surrey Canal Road area, to either share tracks with the two ELL branches, or use separate tracks adjacent to them. Sharing tracks seems a rather impractical arrangement (both branches had a single platform at the terminus). More likely might be a junction station near Surrey Canal Road, with the Bakerloo and ELL each serving one of the termini exclusively. I recall some similar arrangment having been proposed for the Floeet Line's Lewisham extension, with the ELL serving NXG only.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 2, 2013 13:15:26 GMT
In the 1950s, continuing east to make an interchange with the Central line might have seemed sensible for the sake of another mile of double tunnel. What is strange is that I can find no record of such a proposal, I'm sure I've seen this proposed before (as an alternative to Chelney in this area) I know that it has been proposed by myself and others on this forum several times. Having lived at the east end of the Central, it's a very obvious missing link that would really improve access to the Euston Road stations and provide a much needed alternative route into London in times of disruption. Given this I would be amazed that there wasn't a proposal or two from within TfL. The main reason why I think it hasn't been near the top of the agenda to actually build is that the Victoria line just doesn't have the capacity to cope with the traffic it would bring (particularly if you also build a station to serve the hospital and major bus interchange at Whips Cross).
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Post by rogere on Apr 5, 2013 11:10:59 GMT
The map shows Heathrow Central. Until late 1958 (the renaming of Gatwick airport to London Gatwick) The official name was London Airport - Civilian (code LAP). After that it became London Heathrow (code LHR).
The map shows the Heathrow extension as "Under Construction". I thought that started in 1971.
edit - OOPS please ignore - just noticed that I was commenting on the wrong bit of map!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 11:29:37 GMT
So I received an answer from one of the museum curators. This was his response,
"Dear Pritpal
I’ve looked closely at your photos and compared them to some original sketches we have by Beck that we acquired from Ken Garland. None of the sketches are on squared paper, and none that I have looked at have any colour on them, they are much more detailed in the portrayal of specific interchanges than the map as a whole. I have attached an undated fragment which illustrates something of his working practice and the kind of detail he went to, including an approximation of the Johnston font, to show the differences. You can also see that handwriting is quite different on your map. So I think on balance that your map is not drawn by Beck. Possibly it was drawn up by someone wishing to speculate on the portrayal of new lines and extensions, but I am not familiar enough with proposed post-war extensions to know whether the ones shown were ever close to being authorised. I did notice that on the October 1949 Beck map a proposed extension to Camberwell on the Bakerloo is marked, but without the intermediate station of Walworth Road shown on yours. It’s certainly an interesting artefact, but without a stamp or signature or other form of attribution I can’t support the view that it is an official map drawn up by an LT employee".
So in a nutshell the museum isn't to sure either.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Apr 8, 2013 18:13:48 GMT
Pritpal,
A lot of paper used years ago was watermarked.
Hold the paper up to the light and see if you can see a watermark in the paper. If there is, it will throw up many clues.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:57:09 GMT
Easier said than done. The map is glued to a stiff card backing.
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Post by mikebuzz on Apr 8, 2013 22:16:03 GMT
Ultraviolet light might show up a watermark.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 1:09:48 GMT
So I held up the map to the light and to my surprise there is another map drawn on the inside of the card that the map is stuck to. It appears to be the central section and there appears to be a front cover that has the words "Railway Lines Route Diagram" with a roundel at the top center. This is getting more and more interesting.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 9, 2013 12:44:28 GMT
I did notice that on the October 1949 Beck map a proposed extension to Camberwell on the Bakerloo is marked, but without the intermediate station of Walworth Road shown on yours. For the record, there were two signalling schema that I know of drawn up with scale diagrams for the Camberwell extension. Only one of them had an intermediate station at Camberwell Gate; unfortunately the diagrams are undated. I have gone through my many files and have not found a match on the handwriting. However, even with several thousand files, this is only the tip of the iceberg, so I cannot say anything definitively. I suspect without a drawing code reference on the original that it is somebody's personal work, but what a lovely piece of work it is.
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Apr 14, 2013 13:21:15 GMT
To connect the NCL with the ELL via Liverpool street it seems that the plan was to make a horseshoe curve between Moorgate and Liverpool Street. I can't rule out being genuine to some extent but it possibly might have not proceeded beyond the idea stage because of the tight radius.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 12:00:33 GMT
I've had a look, and must confess it looks like a painstaking detailed diagram illustrating an individual's ideas, or their perception of current ideas. I would liken it to - in its day - the sort of diagrams and maps that Mark Townend makes up for discussions at LR these days. Re: GN&C - ELL link via Liverpool St. Conspicuous by its absence is Lothbury. So the extension illustrated probably used only the existing extension tunnels then immediately bore away to the east then north. At what depth, one can only imagine? Going south from Moorgate, it had to move away from the Northern Line tunnels before any diving to deep level was possible. Only a few metres of the wide easement of Moorgate St would have been available for that. Further along, I could see it running under Lothbury and Old Broad St, but the SW half of the U-turn would have to be under buildings. Looks rather fanciful for the day - almost good enough for RIPAS. Another interpretation, noting what seems to be a gap (ie dotted section) between Old St and Moorgate, would have the concept of diverting the GN&C north of Moorgate and having a new Moorgate station underground. I can't see that this approach would give any easier a route. I also read the dotted line through Liverpool St to Shoreditch as suggesting an underground station at Liverpool St (on the east side), and not using the old Met line connection. Basically an ELLX before its day. I reckon it would have worked a treat, and there would have been quite a demand for through services from SE, SC and even SW London. At the other end of the GN&C, ISTM that whoever drew this wanted to show that the new Line C would use the GN&C's platforms at Finsbury Pk, and intended that the GN&C be shown as diverted "to the right" (looking northbound). I read that as meaning built on a side expansion to the main line viaduct, positioned ready to be connected to the Northern Heights (when that came back on stream). But equally, if the Line C was built with 16' tunnels, then there'd be no reason for avoiding a direct connection. Imagine: two routes from Wimbledon to Woodford/Debden - wonder if we'd still have the Wimbeloop issues with the Thameslink "core" if these had been built? Almost certainly, LT would have taken over the Wimbledon - Sutton branch. I very much doubt that this drawing had anything to do with LT. It looks to be a pencil drawing from before the days of colour photocopying.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2013 19:37:18 GMT
So I have finally received a response from Ken about the map. In his opinion it looks like the map was a prototype map that was drawn up to show possible future extension ideas more than likely drawn by Beck in his spare time around the 1950s.
This conflicts with what the Museum curator thought, but he did say that the museum doesn't necessary get or have all of Beck's diagrams and sketches that he ever did. Looks like I may well have hit the jackpot with this one.
He did state that Beck often drew maps in his spare time as it became an obsession for him to some extent. He did urge me to pass it over to the museum though. I will have to give it some deep thought.
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