LT Museum Q stock restoration

Hi, thanks for replying - I think I know you from Flickr :-). The 'new, improved' Proboards has rendered your first line unreadable... Would you mind re-posting?

Cheers, peter

I wouldn't put anything past anyone considering the push for carnage thats gone on in the past 10 years.

Wasn't it mentioned though that the Q23 car posed the biggest challenges? Surely it will just remain static, like the other Q23.

When did the Q38 cars last run under their own power... wasn't that long ago was it?

Ah, that the same length of time as the now scrapped fleet of standards, isn't it... Hmm

Was the plan for the Q23 car to be converted to a trailer? I wonder if this would mean removal of the equipment?

I'd love to see and hear this set running again. There's nothing like them running!

No chance. That's the trouble with Q stock. They have big 240hp motors WT54Bs with Electromagnetic equipment. The only thing similar is on the standards and sarah siddons! The C stock LT117s and PCM equipments are too advanced. I wonder if the equipment from the scrapped pilot cars was saved?

The three cars I'm referring to are the two Q38 DMs 4416/7 and the trailer 08063. Nice as though it would be to see it active, I'm happy to accept that a Q23 car is too big a challenge.

The various posts have helped me understand, I think, a bit more about the electrical issues: I gather that the Q38 cars don't have PCM traction control equipment. Any chance that PCM could be substituted for the original? It wouldn't be totally authentic but at least at least there would be some flared-side surface stock running...

It would be great if there were an electro-mechanical workaround, as on the Brighton Belle project. And if with enough will and concerted effort - and not a little passion shared by many from which has stemmed an exciting vision - it could be made to happen.

I guess I'm dreaming, but the history of railway preservation has shown that dreams can come true - look at Tornado and the GWR railmotor to name just two!

See link (which I suspect has been posted earlier, though it's partially obscured by a quote and unclickable).

Unfortunately much of the above floor equipment on Q Stock was at line voltage including passenger/cab lighting, front marker lights and other cab switches etc.
An extensive rewire would be required to meet modern standards and would probably lose the unique sound of these trains.

I reckon such an old train would require pretty much a total re-wire anyway...

But maybe my dream is starting to fade. Those of you in the know seem quite pessimistic about it all. But then we all thought the modern-day GCR never stood a hope in hell's chance of bridging the gap between the north and south section, and it seems now they're likely to be able to do it.

Is it the fact that its taken straight off the juice rails thats the problem, or the fact that its 600v?

If its the former then some kind of solid state isolater might be the trick, if the motor's current can be separated out from the rest.

There must be a way around it without loosing any character; how have other metros preserved their older stock? I hate to use such a term, but what 'lessons can be learned'?

I don't have a copy of Agnew's Electric Trains to hand, but that would have a diagram of the EM equipment and arrangement. If anyone does have it, would they be willing to scan and upload? It must be out of copyright by now...

A total rewire is planned / in progress regardless of the voltage problems etc as much of the insulation on the original wiring had perished. The main reason (apart from the graffiti) that the Q38 previously parked closer to the roller shutters in Acton appeared cosmetically to be in poor condition is that the interior panelling had already been removed to facilitate rewiring before the car was moved to Acton. All of the panelling exists, and was moved (by myself and some other volunteers) to storage before the cars went to Acton Works. This rewiring includes everything above the sole bar (including the guard's panel), so that the wood panelling won't have to be ripped out again if further funds are found for restoration to running condition.

At the time that the cars were moved to Acton Works, the plan to solve the lighting issue (which will be important even for static display) was to use a 50V DC circuit, which would be essentially identical to that used by the 38 stock. The museum already has a 230V AC to 50V DC transformer (bought by a film company who wanted the lights on), so this would mean that the two stocks were compatible. Some lighting circuit contactors have been saved from later stock (R stock I think) to do the conversion.

If you want to be more you will be best coming to the open day on 13/14 April. Most of the people who know about this will be there, mostly trying to stop people putting their feet on the seats of the 38.

With the line voltage stuff being carried in hidden conduit there is little or no danger to the public. It never was a danger to the public when the stock was in service. To add similaritiess, we could use the standard stock, W&C stock and 4SUB units on the Southern which were still in service when the H&S laws were passed.

My view is that heritage stock CAN be restored to original spec and used in that condition PROVIDING certain risk assessments are done by the operators. These standards can be found online. The reason I say this is because I have recently been made co-ordinator for the rebuilding of the Ryde Pier Tram. Arguments were made that we could not operate light rail and heavy rail on the same track, but, those very standards are possible under the ROGS rules. After all, there's plenty of places where light and heavy rail DO share the same track!

I would suggest that providing staff operating such exposed equipment are suitably trained in its use, there is little or no danger to anyone. the daftest things i ever say were some Southern drivers who used to open the trip/reset switch box and light their fags on the arc when the switch was operated! As smoking is now banned at work, that daft practice has ceased....

Lighting circuits on Q stock was at line volts, but as the bulbs were wired in series using low voltage bulbs, the chance of getting a belt from line volts was minimal. The door control gear, motor control gear and EP brake worked from 110volt batteries at the leading end of the train. The batteries at the rear of the train would be charged when the control switch was closed at that end, being wired in series through the tail light and air gauge lights. ISTR there was another light hidden away somewhere to make the voltage right.

It's a long time since I worked on Q stock!!

Thinking more logically, the heaters in later stock were all at line volts, and they were mounted above the floor. If the problem is making the Q stock compatible with 750 volts, change the voltage of the bulbs or put another 110volt bulb in the circuit!

A rather welcome development is announced in the Friends newsletter that just dropped through my door. I won't retype the entire article, but to paraphrase:

* Restoration of at least 3 cars to running order is believed to be practical.
* It can be achieved with the £465k that has already been raised.
* The line voltage increase can be accommodated.
* The Q23 needs more work (and possibly more money), as well as replacement motors for operational resilience.
* Thought is being given to compatibility with the new signalling using "black boxes".
* There will need to be some updating of systems, aiming for "running order in a condition as close to the original as permitted by current regulations."

At least part of this seems to be a result of willpower on the part of TfL/LU in view of the success of LU150. A working Q Stock in time for 150 years of the District in 2018 would certainly help continue this.

Excellent stuff!

It would be wonderful to be able to ride on a Q stock again. I rode on the last one from Wimbledon to Earls Court, but the last one I worked on was 2 pairs of Q38 pilot motors taking scrap R stock (1959) from Upminster to Ealing Common depot. That was when they cut the R stock down to 7 cars!

In my view there isn't a problem with 600 or 750v providing you don't touch it!

there was no MG on q stock; as I said in an earlier post, low voltage for door controls was via a battery, charged when the guard's position was shut down via a few light bulbs in series!