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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 22:05:18 GMT
I was travelling on an westbound train last night at around 9:40pm, between Chiswick Park and Acton Town where all of the sudden the train came to a stop. A few moments later the driver announced that we had suffered from an track failure and we will be held at that position indefinitely. Minutes later the driver then announced that as the Signal's where not changing/he suffered a signal failure he would drive slowly forward and the train would suddenly come to a shaken stop and advised all passengers to sit down. He proceeded to do this procedure and after the sudden stop he drove very slowly and then after about forty seconds went back to line speed. Then again the train stopped presumably at the next signal and the driver announced he would have to do the same procedure again which he did do on approach to Acton Town and at various intervals throughout this event before the train started to move he would honk the whistle. Once arrived at Acton Town the train resumed normal service.
I have a few questions I would like to ask:
1. What was the actual event that occurred as the driver first said Track then led to Signal failure?
2. Did he follow normal procedures in this event?
3. Why wasn't the TFL website showing any delays on the District Line due to my incident which lasted around 10 minutes?
4. Would any trains behind suffer any consequences apart from the minor delay?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 21, 2013 22:50:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 23:12:45 GMT
I was travelling on an westbound train last night at around 9:40pm, between Chiswick Park and Acton Town where all of the sudden the train came to a stop. A few moments later the driver announced that we had suffered from an track failure and we will be held at that position indefinitely. Minutes later the driver then announced that as the Signal's where not changing/he suffered a signal failure he would drive slowly forward and the train would suddenly come to a shaken stop and advised all passengers to sit down. He proceeded to do this procedure and after the sudden stop he drove very slowly and then after about forty seconds went back to line speed. Then again the train stopped presumably at the next signal and the driver announced he would have to do the same procedure again which he did do on approach to Acton Town and at various intervals throughout this event before the train started to move he would honk the whistle. Once arrived at Acton Town the train resumed normal service. I have a few questions I would like to ask: 1. What was the actual event that occurred as the driver first said Track then led to Signal failure? 2. Did he follow normal procedures in this event? 3. Why wasn't the TFL website showing any delays on the District Line due to my incident which lasted around 10 minutes? 4. Would any trains behind suffer any consequences apart from the minor delay? 1. Not quite sure what a 'track failure' would be but what happened was definitely a signal failure by the sounds of it. 2. Yes afaik (correct me if i'm wrong) once passing a signal at danger with permission during a signal failure the train must be driven at I think under 10mph up to the next signal where it can be driven back up to linespeed. 3. Because the 'Good Service, Minor Delays and Severe Delays' is a load of rubbish to be honest, there was a 20min wait at Epping at around 5 in the evening and the Central line apparently had a good service. 4. Yes most likely. |
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 22, 2013 2:44:17 GMT
1. Not quite sure what a 'track failure' would be but what happened was definitely a signal failure by the sounds of it. 2. Yes afaik (correct me if i'm wrong) once passing a signal at danger with permission during a signal failure the train must be driven at I think under 10mph up to the next signal where it can be driven back up to linespeed. 3. Because the 'Good Service, Minor Delays and Severe Delays' is a load of rubbish to be honest, there was a 20min wait at Epping at around 5 in the evening and the Central line apparently had a good service. 4. Yes most likely. In general terms a track failure is exactly that, i.e. an unoccupied track is 'seen' as occupied or 'down'! The possible causes are many and varied but usually boil down to loss of track feed, earthing fault or failed track relay although other problems such as trainstop failure can force a track to remain 'down' deliberately following the passage of a train as part of the failsafe signalling system. The causes of signal failure are also many and varied and can also be due to loss of supply and earth faults, loss of selection due to track, trainstop, point or other pneumatic, electrical and mechanical failures. Just about any safety signalling circuit failure will result in the failure of one or more signals. A signal failure can be anything from a blown bulb to something far more complex including failures of the non-safety equipment that controls the semi-automatic signalling. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2013 19:02:44 GMT
Don't remember any signal failure around Acton Town on Wednesday night last night there was but no idea about Wednesday. But as RailTech states a signal failure could be anything these days as its more a generic term used by the operating department to let customers know there is a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2013 22:23:03 GMT
If you mean Thursday there was a SPAD at one of the Acton Town home signals. This was due to no red aspect being displayed on the signal. There still is no red aspect displayed as the structure is unsafe.
It makes a change from closing a fault with the comments Operator Error despite it not being an Operator Error - it then fails and causes significant disruption a few days later.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 4:24:42 GMT
There was a failure Wednesday night involving 2 signals at Acton Town which was caused by a track circuit failure I can confirm. And also the relamp has been done at Acton Town
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 16:06:11 GMT
Thank you very much for answering all my questions and confirming! Always good to learn new things.  |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 24, 2013 21:59:10 GMT
1. Not quite sure what a 'track failure' would be but what happened was definitely a signal failure by the sounds of it In general terms a track failure is exactly that, i.e. an unoccupied track is 'seen' as occupied or 'down'! [/quote] What used to confuse me is the use of the phrase "track failure" to mean a failure, not of the railway track itself (which, to a layman, sounds rather alarming), but of an electrical circuit of which the railway track forms a part. There is little risk of derailment or anything like that with most "track failures" - although a broken rail can be the caus,e it is much more likely to be a failed electrical component. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 24, 2013 22:34:48 GMT
As it happens, all the broken rails I ever dealt with weren't announced by a track circuit failure at all; an eagle-eyed P/Way Patroller found two and Ultrasonic tests the third.
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 25, 2013 2:18:07 GMT
As it happens, all the broken rails I ever dealt with weren't announced by a track circuit failure at all; an eagle-eyed P/Way Patroller found two and Ultrasonic tests the third. Yep same here, I dealt with quite a few broken rails, invariably towards the end of engineering hours and so always pressed for time. I recall a manager asking me once why broken rails only ever happened a short time before traffic hours were due to commence! It was the patrolman finding them during the shift, having to get to a phone to report it and then the line service centre requesting signals to attend. Many times I had to tidy up/make good whatever routine maintenance I was doing, load the van and zoom around to the depot stores to collect the necessary materials etc before heading for the site. ERU were good but they would often turn up missing something or other or breaking all the reciprocating saw or bandsaw blades while cutting the rail and have no spares. On one occasion I watched an ERU supervisor finish cutting a rail with a keying hammer after all the proper kit was found to be useless and then borrow my hammer and chisel to clean up the end. Working under pressure was always an adrenalin rush and good for the soul too! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 11:15:08 GMT
Ands it will get worse with more and more axle counters getting installed the people in the know will understand what I mean.
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 25, 2013 12:04:52 GMT
Ands it will get worse with more and more axle counters getting installed the people in the know will understand what I mean. Oh yeah, I did wonder about those when I saw the state of an early one installed on my maintenance patch. I have always thought that LT signalling 'as was' was very good using solid equipment that stood the test of time and which was simple to work on. As one of my former colleagues used to say "It has to be simple for someone like me to be able to work on it". He was no idiot but the point was well made, well built solid kit, easy to troubleshoot and replace but disappearing from the railway by the bucketload replaced with new technology that IMO will never last as long. Unfortunately as with many businesses today the railway has become another part of the throwaway society, quality costs but one gets what one pays for, 19th and early 20th century technology still in use today has stood the test of time, I'm not sure that modern technology will come anywhere near to matching it because, although in principle it may be solid, in practice so much seems to be a cheaply made alternative. I couldn't see anything wrong with delta tracks really, even the old style pre 10kHz variety. To my mind I liken the change to modern technology on the 1:1 railway to that of the 00 modeller jumping from the simplicity of isolated track feeding to DCC ! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 12:09:45 GMT
Ands it will get worse with more and more axle counters getting installed the people in the know will understand what I mean. A few years ago I raised this exact point with someone who was well experienced in NR signalling. He argued that track circuits were never intended to detect broken rails, that is just a by-product. You could also argue that the dead sections between JTCs won't detect a break either, nor a break in a continuous rail where there are alternate current paths available. Incidently, I have been on a track circuit failure caused by a broken rail. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 12:14:15 GMT
I couldn't see anything wrong with delta tracks really, even the old style pre 10kHz variety. As I understand it, the 10kHz deltas are only being replaced because they are incompatible with jointless track circuits. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 17:21:29 GMT
and also they are not compatible with the new S stock trains. In JTC areas be it FS2500 or FS2550 they use treadles instead of Deltas also people up high are concerned if the Siemans PD's are also incompatible with the S stock.From what we understand the whole line will be axle counters eventually once the resignalling gets into full swing.
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Post by railtechnician on Feb 25, 2013 20:42:23 GMT
I couldn't see anything wrong with delta tracks really, even the old style pre 10kHz variety. As I understand it, the 10kHz deltas are only being replaced because they are incompatible with jointless track circuits. There must be more to it than that, someone somewhere has done some sums and come up with an answer that suits the installation of axle counters! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 21:30:09 GMT
Less maintenance of the equipment plain and simple
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Feb 26, 2013 8:42:13 GMT
Less maintenance of the equipment plain and simple Less equipment to maintain = Less staff needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2013 16:51:33 GMT
Exactly
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