Length of Class 345

I confirm that 10-car fixed formation trains is my understanding, too. The contract will obviously contain an on option to add 2 cars to each train.

Operationally, it is claimed that it now costs more to reorganise trains to provide shorter ones off-peak than is saved by doing so. This heralds the end of multiple unit trains as we have known them.

Now, whether there is any provision to lock down parts of the train for quieter periods, to reduced energy consumption on lights and airconditioning is fine detail that I haven't seen, but jolly hope is written into the contract!! This also improves passenger security at quiet times, so if it isn't there, the passenger representative organisations need to be making some noise, now.

Yes, three pairs of doors to minimise dwell times.

Not sure about type of doors, but to date, metro rail applications retain conventional sliding doors. Plug doors are best used where climatic factors mean their better seal allows a more efficient air conditioning system - this is usually associated with longer duration journeys.

Plug doors provide in general, a quieter journey. But they are slower, and therefore unsuited to minimum dwell metro/inner suburban applications. They also allow a greater usable width within the cars.

With the move to fixed formations, I wonder if they'll be articulated to reduce the number of bogies required.

They have already announced that the trains are going to be publicly funded, as they can't afford the delays due to the current problems in raising finance. As for the trains, it's probably either Siemans or Bombardier with either of there new lightweight(er) trains. The trains will have even wider two door openings rather than 3 door.

if you look at overground - they have wider doors = 2 doors each carriage but i prefer 3 doors

Apologies - I thought you were referring to the funding issue, not design.

Given the TPH frequency, dwell times don't really matter.

Given how small the width is with the two door configuration is my concern, why make the doors so small and not larger like the 92ts? I went on the Overground a few months ago and it was rammed, people were still trying to get out when the T/Op was ready to leave. Longitudinal seating means less seats with more doors, if they rethink the seating a little (S8 for example) they can have a 3 door configuration. It's not difficult!

Also we need to factor in the length of the car, if it's shorter then you have more doors technically speaking any ways. As much as people dislike the S8, it's configuration is good IMHO.

JR East tried six doors on their E231, but they were replaced with the more standard four doors.



I think that despite the argument on wider doors and all that, plug and outer hung doors give a bit more space than sliding pocket doors so why not, instead use outer hung doors like Tube/S Stock? It gives slightly more passenger space and we at least know where the doors will go.
The 378's footplate is a bit deceiving in where the door goes and during rush hour, someone could get trapped in them if one is wearing headphones or not concentrating etc..

Outside doors give a slightly *smaller* interior don't they... :S

The Overground internal sliding doors are a poor example as the pockets seem particularly deep for them, compared with formet LT practice

No. Network Rail track forces model sees more damaged caused by articulated units so any design that includes them (like Alstom) will get rejected on value for money grounds.



Actually no bidder proposed fixed formations. It was a DfT spec. As for no 24 car roads in any depot, not true. Both Siemens depots will be able to cope. As for how many signal books would a 24 car block, well with Core signaling being 100m a 24 car would be in five signal areas. However remember it will be automatic so won't be quite as difficult as that!

Note that articulation bring shorter car lengths but trains are being spec-ed in overall length. A 240m (normally 12 cars) would actually be a 15 car.

As for this door problem, the new generation design mean much wider doors on offer that current stock and the ability to get 1,000 on/off or any combination in the standard dwell time means its not as big an issue as you'd think. For reference a 12 car is expected to hold around 1,500 so they have designs proven to allow 67% to move at a single station. Other than Canary Wharf, will any station really see a figure that high?

fleetline - excuse me but I had the privilege of examining the detailed depot layouts for both Hornsey and Three Bridges - neither had depot roads or reception roads capable of taking a 24 car set as proposed in 2011. Indeed, Hornsey was a tight fit even for 12s. A 480m (actually 490m train would have required both a reception road and the linked depot road to be clear simultaneously - not a good position for an out of course movement.) The LPA was not at all keen to see any extension to the premises. Operators, when challenged on the point suggested using Cricklewood for cripples. Maybe, Siemens have been allowed to redesign both sites but that wasn't in the original DfT spec which was very prescriptive on the grounds that only DfT could deliver the appropriate deal with the local planning authorities and bidders could take it or leave it. It would be nice if Dft had caved in to reality. (The manufacturer whose bid I was reviewing at the time didn't feel brave enough to take up the cudgels, however, and was reluctant to consider alternative sites.) The XR depots will presumably be different - one hopes.

In relation to ATO on TLK, there's a rumour sculling around that the potential bidders are not impressed by any ATO system on offer, don't see it as essential, and would prefer to carry on with manual driving throughout.

As to the on/off issue, again, I was referring to TLK where it is more than likely that a train will substantially empty at either BFRS or City TLK; I would expect XR to be different for the obvious reasons. It may also be the case that station dwell times on XR are less tricky than on TLK. For TLK, to recap, the prescribed dwell time from DfT was 45 sec, of which about 35 sec max were available for actual passenger boarding/exiting. With 36 wide doors available and assuming that means that 2 people could enter or leave simultaneously, with a 1000 punters, you would have about 30 punters per sec. With 72 door "spaces" available, that gives them about 1.8 sec each to leave the train - do-able but very tight and it assumes (a) that circulation within the train is perfect [ see Chris' comment earlier], and (b) the punters are nicely spaced throughout the train. Bitter experience suggest that pefection and reality do not often coincide...
GH

Why are externally-hung doors so much wider than the door apertures? On tube stock, at least; the S Stock doesn't have the huge external overlap that the 92 Stock in particular, and its successors, have.

There have been some changes but I actually have a copy of the current plan and at Three Bridges there is 5x 24 roads and a single 36 car road that's designed to handle failure units. There problem I have with your comments is the DfT isn't building owning or developing the depots. Network Rail is getting the planning permission where as Siemens will ensure the design is suitable for their needs. Don't forget that fleet size has changed since 2010 so the design you have seen may have been based on that.

Crossrail depots may be different but I'm not working on that project so I can't say.



That's simply not true.



I don't see your issue. The Crossrail trains which is being offered by Siemens and Bombardier are based on the Thameslink fleet which had a platform time of 90 seconds. That 90 seconds starts as front of train hits the cab and ends when the rear cab is clear of the other end of the 12 car platform in the Core. During this time, train must come to a stand, open doors, allow 1,000 people on or off, shut doors, get inter lock then clear the 240m platform. They are designed for THREE people to use at the same time with ease. That's without talking about the limited 32tph ability of the ATO which will shorten this even further. Helps when you've got stock that can move quickly too. Hence the new build class 700 units.

Seem your working is based on old or incorrect information hence why you feel it can't work. But your information has lead you to be wrong I'm afraid.