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Post by rogere on Nov 28, 2012 12:09:09 GMT
In the past there have been many discussions about extending from Uxbridge/Ruislip to High Wycombe, but this is just a bit different.
I have been re-reading the Alan Jackson Metropolitan Railway book, and in it I have just found a quote that states (to summarise it) "The people of High Wycombe approached the Metropolitan to get an extension to Wycombe, but the railway proposed a branch from Great Missenden to Wycombe. This was scrapped when the cost of buying-up the necessary land would have proved to be too expensive"
I have not been able to find anything out about this proposed route - in fact I would have thought the gradient would have been too much (unless it took the scenic route via the Hampdens and Hughenden)
Does anyone have any info. on this branch proposal?
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kabsonline
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Post by kabsonline on Nov 28, 2012 12:37:56 GMT
The branch must have been planned to roughly follow the Wycombe road via Prestwood and Great Kingshill- that would have the been the easiest route as far as I can see from Great Missenden and would have been beneficial to the most amount of places ie stations at these locations. However if you look at it logically, I would have thought that a branch from Amersham would have been a more sensible option via Holmer Green and Hazlemere, these places being more populous or even the extension of the Central via Denham and Beaconsfield. However back in the days this was not part of the Metropolitan. If the branch had of been built, I can now have seen it in the hands of Chiltern Railways and not London Underground
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Post by metroland on Nov 28, 2012 12:38:15 GMT
Must admit that's a new one on me. Apart from Hughenden valley I don't see how they could even have contemplated it from Missenden.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 13:20:58 GMT
Looking at the map, a branch from Great Missenden would seem wrong: given that a link from London was what was wanted, a junction from Little Missenden (i.e mid way between Amersham and Great M.) would seem far more logical - by there the Misbourne Valley is sufficiently diminished to be much less of an obstacle than it would be from a junction at Amersham.
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cso
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Post by cso on Nov 28, 2012 13:33:29 GMT
I'd have thought Great Missenden - High Wycombe by train would require a lot of tunneling as I'd have thought it was too hilly to do anything else... even via Prestwood and Great Kingshill is a bit on the hilly side to Wycombe.
I can't think of any route between the two that I know of that wouldn't involve hills.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 28, 2012 14:40:47 GMT
Could it be the scheme was deliberately cack handed because the Met just didn't want to do it?
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kabsonline
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Post by kabsonline on Nov 28, 2012 18:14:25 GMT
Could it be the scheme was deliberately cack handed because the Met just didn't want to do it? That's a good point. I wonder how many railway schemes in the past have been wanted by the customers, the company agrees but then proposes the worst option of carry out the scheme just so they have an excuse as to not doing it ;D
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Nov 28, 2012 18:41:40 GMT
kabsonline asked "I wonder how many railway schemes in the past have been wanted by the customers, the company agrees but then proposes the worst option of carry out the scheme just so they have an excuse as to not doing it", but it is still going on now.
"Southern" promised to build "the Arundel Chord" in their bidding process to get the local franchise from Connex. Having got the franchise, they have done everything they can to prevent the build.
There is a similar example in W London where the London Borough of Hillingdon want a chord at Ruislip to allow the Cental Line to get to Uxbridge, but although the locals want it, it doesn't seem to be on the radar of those who can do anything about it. A massive opportunity missed (by people who didn't live anywhere near it, so didn't care).
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 28, 2012 22:19:39 GMT
There was a scheme to extend the Met from Uxbridge round to Harefield too!
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Post by ruislip on Nov 29, 2012 1:42:10 GMT
I recently posted in RIPAS about extending the Piccadilly to High Wycombe, as a quid pro quo if the Central goes to Uxbridge ;D
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Post by geriatrix on Nov 29, 2012 9:27:18 GMT
High Wycombe (despite it's name) is situated at the bottom of a steep sided, narrow, valley. There is certainly no easy way in for any new surface railway.
The Chiltern service from Wycombe to Marylebone is reasobaly fast ,frequent and pricey. Can't see many people using the Picc or the Met if they served Wycombe, in preference, especially as the Met from Amersham is now slower than it was. Would like to see a line from Hazlemere down to Wycombe - probably need to be a rack.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Nov 29, 2012 9:34:34 GMT
@ Ruislip
Not only do l not think any 'quid pro quo' is necessary, but l also feel such a suggestion devalues the Central to Uxb idea. The Picc to High Wycombe is pure fantasy whereas there is already local pressure at London Borough & local MP level for the Central Line to have a "Ruislip chord" enabling through Central services to Uxbridge.
The Picc needs to concentrate on Heathrow services. Cutting the Picc back to Rayners with some peaks to Ruislip frees more stock for the Heathrow service. If the quid pro quo comes into this submission, it wipes out all chances of the chord ever happening, and to be honest l've never heard of this "Picc to Wycombe" idea until l read your thread. IMHO it is a futile and pointless suggestion that devalues what is necessary. Whilst l have no problem with RIPAS ideas "per se", l do think the Central to Uxb should stand apart from diverting the Picc to Wycombe which l feel will never happen.
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Post by geriatrix on Nov 29, 2012 10:14:17 GMT
Of course, extending the Central from West Ruislip to Wycombe would be doable, and would have been the natural follow on from extending to Denham as was planned at one stage. But it would be pointless, and if TFL was forced to choose between extending the Central to Wycombe (Bucks) and Uxbridge (Greater London), I know which I'd bet on!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2012 10:19:50 GMT
The Picc needs to concentrate on Heathrow services. Surely the simplest solution to that problem is to transfer the Rayners/Uxbridge service back to the District (solving all the intermediate level platform problems at a stroke), by diverting the Ealing Broadway service. Ealing Broadway could be served by a shuttle from Acton Town. (Sadly, too much infrastructure work would be needed to integrate it with the Ealing-Greenford shuttle)
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Post by londonstuff on Nov 29, 2012 10:34:30 GMT
Hello all,
As Norbitonflier and Castlebar have done above, please could we bring this back to actual doable schemes? I've no objection to moving this to the RIPAS section if it's in the league of an interesting idea but probably never going to happen but as it's in the Historical section we should probably stick to the achievable.
Thanks in advance
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Nov 29, 2012 10:35:48 GMT
@ norbitonflyer
Sorry, but no, it isn't
The problem is Uxb & Hillingdon pax want to get to Greenford Perivale (and vice versa) and now White City
How does diverting the District to Uxb help? How do you deal with Chiswick Park pax with an Ealing Bdy/Acton Town shuttle?
And have you ANY comprehension of how Ealing Bdy pax will react when they are told that their District Line service is being replaced by an Acton Town shuttle?? Unreal.
You are creating problems where none exist.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Nov 29, 2012 10:45:58 GMT
@ londonstuff
Thank you
Some schemes are "doable" and all of them worthy of further discussion and investigation. There were some very good "Northern Heights" ideas just a few days ago.
But unfortunately some other schemes are no more than manuscript lines drawn on tube maps and are simply not achievable. IMHO these devalue the 'doable' ones which are posted on here.
Of course, everyone is entitled to post ideas on the RIPAS board, but it might be an idea to consider the practicality and cost of some of the schemes before posting. Similarly, local geographic knowledge would also be an asset as so many times it is obvious that some schemes fail to take things such as rivers and valleys into account.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2012 11:05:27 GMT
The proposed scheme is not well thought out, if it's aim was to link to London and if a link to Aylesbury was objective, what was the point as the route via Princes Risborough was a better solution.
An idea dreamed up after a few beers maybe? ;D
XF
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2012 12:18:59 GMT
@ norbitonflyer. Sorry, but no, it isn't. My comment was specifically on the suggestion that the Picc needs to concentrate on Heathrow. @ The problem is Uxb & Hillingdon pax want to get to Greenford Perivale (and vice versa) and now White City.How does diverting the District to Uxb help? A different problem entirely. Trains off the South Harrow line would have to be truncated at Ruislip/Rayners to make way for the proposed Central Line service to Uxbridge, but it makes no difference whether those truncayted services have come from Cockfosters or Upminster. How do you deal with Chiswick Park pax with an Ealing Bdy/Acton Town shuttle?? Why would diversion to Rayners Lane instead of Ealing Broadway prevent District Line trains calling at Chiswick Park? I only proposed Acton Town as the end of the shuttle because connections to the Picadilly are available there and there is no turnback facility at Ealing Common. No reason in principle why the shuttle couldn't run further east: Turnham Green for example (or South Acton if you want to get nostalgic). And have you ANY comprehension of how Ealing Bdy pax will react when they are told that their District Line service is being replaced by an Acton Town shuttle?? . I doubt they'd welcome the idea with open arms, but it's hardly the end of civilisation as we know it. How did Mill Hill East passengers react when their off-peak service became a shuttle? How do you think Morden - Charing Cross passengers like the proposed Northern Line extension plans? And I can't imagine Clapham High Street- Victoria or Denmark Hill- London Bridge regulars are looking forward to Sunday week! I expect some EBdy passengers would use Ealing Common or North Ealing instead, some would use the shuttle, some would switch to the Central Line, some would use the E3 bus, and in due course some would use their shiny new Crossrail service. How many Ealing Broadway passengers already switch to the Piccy at Acton Town anyway?
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 29, 2012 12:19:27 GMT
Of course, extending the Central from West Ruislip to Wycombe would be doable, and would have been the natural follow on from extending to Denham as was planned at one stage. But it would be pointless, and if TFL was forced to choose between extending the Central to Wycombe (Bucks) and Uxbridge (Greater London), I know which I'd bet on! Agreed. Indeed HW would probably have been the ultimate natural terminal of the metro service...which given modern levels of demand causing the tube to have to contract into central London to conserve capacity, is why Crossrail, as the Central Line's inner suburban relief role, would make an excellent candidate to be extended from OOC to HW
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Post by bassmike on Nov 30, 2012 12:41:53 GMT
If you must go to High Wycombe, why not just extend the Central line as there are two little holes in W Ruislip bridge just waiting to be used.
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Post by elo10538 on Nov 30, 2012 15:10:37 GMT
I thought that the original intention when the Harrow and Uxbridge Railway was proposed, was that the Met would eventually extend onwards to High Wycombe, which explains the alignment of the tracks terminating at the original station at Uxbridge, adjacent to Belmont Road. The GWR strongly objected to these proposals, High Wycombe being solely their domain, and that the extension proposals were dropped from the original Parliamentary Bill. The original alignment remained, until the present station was built.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 30, 2012 17:30:53 GMT
That has been mentioned before, somewhere, as being indeed the case.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Dec 12, 2012 9:41:50 GMT
Who on earth would want to go all the way from HW to London in a tube train when the Chiltern diesels and quicker and arguably more comfortable.
As for turning EBwy shuttles at Acton Town, where? This would mean the DR having to cross the Picc road to get to the reversing sidings and delay the Heathrow to London service. there is a turnback at E Common called the depot, but again with the crossing movement this would cause more problems. think too of the boredom of the driver doing EBdy-ECommon all day!
Then tipping out every 10 minutes at ECommon would cause more delays...
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