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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 1:00:59 GMT
In amongst the many postings about the A Stock recently, there has been the odd posting about S Stock seating, or lack of it.
Presumably, with the A Stock replaced and the Circle/Hammersmith & City fleet about to come in, more than half of the S Stock is still to be delivered. So here's a long shot - could a batch be delivered as S8s, fitted with high-backed seating and luggage racks, and delivered to the Metropolitan Line, replacing the current S8 Stock fleet?
You don't need me to tell you that in the peak hours, every luggage rack on an A Stock train had a bag or a briefcase on it. Commuters must be missing those now.
And when I rode on an S Stock from Harrow to Liverpool Street on September 26th, having seen off the last normal-service A Stock, I thought how uncomfortable it would be for people coming in from Amersham, spending over an hour sitting on those seats.
The transverse or 'afterthought' seats, as they might be called, have slightly higher backs, but for me, they still don't do the job. The S8 build, with their seating configuration, would be better employed on the District, on which a cross between standing and seating would work well. Some District journeys are one- or two-stop, but there is more distance usage on the District than there is on the Hammersmith & City and Circle.
But on the Metropolitan, most usage is by longer-distance travellers. They wouldn't be happy to stand for a couple of minutes, they want a seat. When you rode on the A Stock, you were on something different to any other Underground train. The S Stock is the 2009 Stock, only bigger.
The Metropolitan Line resembles many National Rail routes into London (maybe the idea of selling it off the LU network was talked about at some point in the distant past). There were/are enough examples around to influence the interior of the Met's S Stock - for example Class 321, which is on Greater Anglia and used to be on Silverlink, or the more modern Class 360. High-back, or 'coach' seats, luggage racks, coat hooks - the basics that most people travelling from outside Zone 6 to London would want. Get them into the S Stock, and you'd be onto a winner with the Met-using public.
The S Stock as it is at the moment would be just the thing for the other sub-surface lines, but in the long term it won't cut it on the Metropolitan Line.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 3:27:06 GMT
How would you balance the "outer zone 6" model with the fact that the S stocks are people shifters south of Harrow? Especially beyond Baker st. A coach layout with cramped legroom like a 321 would only increase dwell times.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 6, 2012 8:23:18 GMT
I'm afriad so. The Amersham man (person?) has lost the power they had 50 years ago. They form a small minority of a cross section of passengers who use the Met and LUL want to get in as many people as they can.
I throught it would have been better to put 2+2 seating in but the gains were only 2 seats per car!
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Post by 21146 on Oct 6, 2012 9:43:14 GMT
Let the Met carry on eroding its customer base. Anyone travelling north of Moor Park uses Chiltern anyway nowadays if they can. LU's running times are a joke. Whilst following the last passenger A Stock, I photographed it going S/B at C&L, crossed platforms and caught the following Up Chiltern, overtook the A Stock around Neasden, got off at MAR and took the Bakerloo to BAS, then when I reached the Metropolitan Line level it was still in platform 3 and I was able to board it. Earlier, I had seen the A at BAS then took another N/B train to WEP with the aim of boarding it there, In the event the A Stock was worked fast so it non-stopped WEP. I thus took an all-stations train to HOH plat 3, where to my surprise, the A was still in plat 1 and I was able to get on. Similarly on the day of the farewell tour, whilst waiting on BAS platform 3 for it to arrive N/B on its last trip, Aldgate trains were standing there for an average of 5 minutes.
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 6, 2012 11:45:33 GMT
I live in Harrow and I take the Chiltern now!
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 6, 2012 12:08:18 GMT
The seats have been arranged so that bags and cases go under them
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 12:17:27 GMT
I live in Harrow and I take the Chiltern now! I agree with Metman and 21146, too much has changed on the Met line, both with timetables and rolling stock, and people are being put off. I very seldom use a Met train myself now, there really isn't any point in using them to the north Met when you have a Chiltern.......... Know what you mean Metman, get an S stock or a 165 (or on a good day the excellent 168s!) - no contest. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 12:19:37 GMT
The seats have been arranged so that bags and cases go under them I personally don't think this is a good thing.........  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 13:14:10 GMT
The seats have been arranged so that bags and cases go under them I personally don't think this is a good thing......... Neither do I, surely luggage put above you on a nice shelf is better than beneath you on a potentially dirty floor? |
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Post by andypurk on Oct 6, 2012 14:14:09 GMT
Let the Met carry on eroding its customer base. Anyone travelling north of Moor Park uses Chiltern anyway nowadays if they can. LU's running times are a joke. I don't think it is the running times, but the time spent waiting for time at the pinch points. If you compare the southbound Amersham - Baker Street timing of 59 mins (off-peak) with the northbound of 52 mins, you can see that there is time being wasted in platforms. Part of the problem here is that the timetable / journey planner doesn't show arrival times, so the JP actually suggests changing at Finchley Road to the Jubilee line in order to save one minute on arrival at Baker Street; however the Met line train will actually arrive first and spend several minutes waiting for departure time to Aldgate. The current timetable is, of course, still based on the mixed A-stock / S-stock fleets so it is possible there might be some speeding up of the timetable in the future to take advantage of the greater acceleration of the S-stock. The cynic in me wonders whether the off-peak fast Met line trains will be reinstated once resignalling has finished, to show the 'new and improved timetable' or possibly when the Croxley link opens. Personally, as someone who also lives in Harrow, I find that the Chiltern services are often a couple of minutes late and often use the short platforms at Marylebone (with the long walk to the barrier), this uses up the advantage of the faster run from Harrow. |
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Post by andypurk on Oct 6, 2012 14:17:02 GMT
I personally don't think this is a good thing......... Neither do I, surely luggage put above you on a nice shelf is better than beneath you on a potentially dirty floor? As a short person, I find the floor much handier than a luggage rack  Additionally, there is less risk of getting hit on the head with someone else's bag as well. |
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Post by metrailway on Oct 6, 2012 14:52:24 GMT
Let the Met carry on eroding its customer base. Anyone travelling north of Moor Park uses Chiltern anyway nowadays if they can. LU's running times are a joke. Whilst following the last passenger A Stock, I photographed it going S/B at C&L, crossed platforms and caught the following Up Chiltern, overtook the A Stock around Neasden, got off at MAR and took the Bakerloo to BAS, then when I reached the Metropolitan Line level it was still in platform 3 and I was able to board it. The current situation on the Met is so sad. It just wouldn't happen if the Met (north of Moor Park) operated similar to how National Rail TOCs have to meet certain commitments. The current deterioration of journey times on Met services just couldn't happen with a mainline TOC as journey times are part of the franchise commitments. Also, if the method used to allocate fare revenue on the national network (ORCATS) was used for stations on the Met, LUL would lose a huge amount of fare revenue to Chiltern as Met trains are significantly slower. |
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Post by 21146 on Oct 6, 2012 16:31:03 GMT
I should add that when my Chiltern arrived at MAR (our "final" destination - eh?), it terminated behind two other trains yet I STILL got to BAS in time to catch up with Train 412!
To go back O/T, the current seating layout still doesn't stop the "feet on seats" brigade, and in some respects I'd like to see an S7 design just to thwart this lot.
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Post by malcolmffc on Oct 8, 2012 22:34:26 GMT
Actually a similar method to ORCATS is used to allocate Oyster PAYG so it will be costing LUL something.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2012 15:12:18 GMT
The long distance discomfort of the new trains would be eased if the fast services were restored. During earlier debates on this subject it became quite clear that the power of Amersham man had been surpassed by Pinner man and the fast trains had been reduced to increase capacity on the slow lines.
Now that all trains are S Stock with their inherent greater capacity, this problem should be resolved so there should be no reason not to restore the fast services.
As for the S Stock seating, sadly it will never change. LU have made it quite clear that it runs a metro people moving service and is not interested in suburban commuters.
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Post by peterc on Oct 10, 2012 10:55:18 GMT
The great thing about the S stock is that you can actually get on a train at Kings Cross. I have often seen passengers left on the platform by A stock despite there being empty seats because people found it too difficult to move away from the doors.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 22:14:39 GMT
If surface Underground trains don't have luggage racks, why have all the ceiling and roof height? Why not have a surface stock that is a little bit higher than a tube train, which would save on build costs and weight.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 22:22:11 GMT
The great thing about the S stock is that you can actually get on a train at Kings Cross. I have often seen passengers left on the platform by A stock despite there being empty seats because people found it too difficult to move away from the doors. The centre grab poles put in the double doorways on refurb caused the doorways to clog up and make passage through them more difficult with people congregated tightly and blocking the way with their arms gripping the pole. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 10:17:44 GMT
As for the S Stock seating, sadly it will never change. LU have made it quite clear that it runs a metro people moving service and is not interested in suburban commuters. If that is the case then it's a shame they can't, or won't, be more flexible where the Metropolitan Line fleet is concerned. Like I said the S Stock is perfect for the other sub-surface lines, but when the A Stock was first designed, they knew then that they needed something a little different for the Met. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 8:49:01 GMT
As for the S Stock seating, sadly it will never change. LU have made it quite clear that it runs a metro people moving service and is not interested in suburban commuters. If that is the case then it's a shame they can't, or won't, be more flexible where the Metropolitan Line fleet is concerned. Like I said the S Stock is perfect for the other sub-surface lines, but when the A Stock was first designed, they knew then that they needed something a little different for the Met. To be fair, the Met fleet is different - it has some transverse seats, which, when the 72ts and D stock are gone, will be unique to the Underground again. On the other hand I do wish all of the seating was transverse, but that doesn't appear to be possible anymore. |
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Additionally, there is less risk of getting hit on the head with someone else's bag as well.
