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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 19:40:43 GMT
Hello all.
May I possibly post here in the hope that there will be members who can fill in some gaps in my memories of the eastern end of the central Line in the 1950's please. I'm 61 now.
I used to live close to the line between Loughton and Buckhurst Hill and have some good memories from when I was about five, I would guess....this would have been around 1956.
I recall the goods yards at Loughton as I walked, with my mother, along the "Cinder Path" alongside the back of Brook School (which I later attended) towards the station and through the short tunnel under the line as we approached the station. I've seen steam locos running 'light' through Buckhurst Hill. (J15's, as I now gather) and I recall carriages being red, then silver and, of course, the current colours.
In later years I've had the misfortune of attending incidents at Woodford and Debden, to name just two, after I joined the London Fire Brigade.
But what's bugging me is my inability to pin down some information about the Sunday morning excursions that I used to see on the line running through Loughton and Buckhurst Hill. Steam locos with a line of carriages which, I was told, used to be bound for the coast. I believe they came off at Leyton but don't know their route thereafter.
I have seen an old thread in which poster "oracle" has contributed..........http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=thecentralline&action=print&thread=8707
This mentions the use of steam on the line but I hope someone can fill me in a bit more.
I'll sign off for now as the Paralympics opening ceremony is on the box.
Hope someone can help.
Many thanks.
Stan.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 29, 2012 20:51:42 GMT
I suppose that at one time, they could have reversed at Woodford then round the loop to Newbury Park where they could take the long since closed line to Seven Kings. From Seven Kings, numerous seaside destinations would have been available: Southend, Clacton, Walton, Great Yarmouth to name but a few.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2012 21:04:02 GMT
Hello and thanks for reply. I gathered that they left the Central Line at a junction near Leyton (at a point where there was a signal box which is now gone) - just before where the line goes into the tunnel - and went, perhaps, via Temple Mills and on to somewhere I know not. I had kind of assumed Southend or Clacton but not for any particular reason...and seem to think Fenchurch Street featured somewhere in the equation, but could be wrong.
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Post by bassmike on Aug 30, 2012 2:49:52 GMT
there were Loughton to Eastbourne specials for example which went via Loughton branch junction at leyton and then reversed in Liverpool street and then via the East London line to new cross gate.
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Post by bassmike on Aug 30, 2012 2:55:57 GMT
rer last post, these were diesel hauled up to the mid fifties I think and were withdrawn faily soon after that. Re; steam locos on the line, I was stationed at RAF Chigwell (bottom of Roding Lane) in 1952/3 and used the line regularly. Often saw light engines about lunchtime saturdays going through Buckhurst Hill.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 12:18:52 GMT
Thanks. Had no knowledge of the Eastbourne / Liverpool Street / New Cross Gate connections so there's something new. I lived with a view between two houses which backed on to the line between B/Hill & Loughton and so the Loughton reference makes good sense....I didn't know whether the excursion might have started at Epping, for example.
We used to walk along a footpath that went alongside the RAF camp at Chigwell...past the Guard House and Fire Engine which was visible from the path. We played and caught tiddlers and small Millers Thumb or Bullhead (I think) catfish in the River Roding with the high camp fences clearly visible just beyond.
In later years my father taught me to drive on the concrete aprons of the, then closed, campsite. The balloon tethering points are still visible, even now as some of the concrete access roads still exist.
I have no memories at all of any diesel locos on the line....only steam and can't put a year to when I last saw one.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Aug 30, 2012 12:31:43 GMT
I suspected Eastbourne as a destination, before l read it here, - l seem to remember seeing a photo of such a train near Haywards Heath. But l am far from convinced about the route - l do not think these used the ELL, but more likely accessed the Southern via Farringdon and the curve that was once used for St Pancras - Tilbury boat trains. Further research needed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 12:36:35 GMT
It's a shame that, livng so close, my parents never took me on any of the excursions......I think it was more important to be attending church than going to the seaside. So church it was.
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Post by rdm on Aug 30, 2012 13:52:28 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 30, 2012 14:04:14 GMT
But l am far from convinced about the route - l do not think these used the ELL, but more likely accessed the Southern via Farringdon and the curve that was once used for St Pancras - Tilbury boat trains. I think the curve you mention is the one also used for the Goblin service when it ran to Kentish Town rather than Gospel Oak. Not sure how that would work though - how would they get from the Central to the Goblin? I'm also not aware of the Snow Hill tunnel being used for passenger services after 1916 - not until 1989 anyway! From the Shoreditch page of the "abandoned stations" website The connection [between Shoreditch ELL and Liverpool Street ER] remained until the 1960s and was used until then for regular BR worked parcels trains at night, as well as through Sunday excursions from Eastern Region (and from Loughton on the Central Line) to such places as Brighton, Eastbourne and Margate. These reversed in Liverpool St." |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 16:01:06 GMT
"The connection remained until the 1960s and was used until then for regular BR worked parcels trains at night, as well as through Sunday excursions from Eastern Region (and from Loughton on the Central Line) to such places as Brighton, Eastbourne and Margate. These reversed in Liverpool St".
I can now see for myself where the excursions might have been headed (south coast, rather than the east coast as I always thought) and can even see, in the photo on the website quoted, where the trains would have passed through.
I always had Fenchurch Street in mind, rather than Liverpool St so have got that sorted now.
Would any of you, well informed, members now be able to say for sure that it was the Leyton junction where it left the Central Line...and that it would have gone via Temple Mills to Liv. St. ? (and, as we now seem to know, via Shoreditch)
Thank you for this info. which has come to me after a very short time.
Any personal recollections from anyone who might wish to share them would be gratefully received.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 16:10:37 GMT
But l am far from convinced about the route - l do not think these used the ELL, but more likely accessed the Southern via Farringdon and the curve that was once used for St Pancras - Tilbury boat trains. I think the curve you mention is the one also used for the Goblin service when it ran to Kentish Town rather than Gospel Oak. Not sure how that would work though - how would they get from the Central to the Goblin? I'm also not aware of the Snow Hill tunnel being used for passenger services after 1916 - not until 1989 anyway! There were two curves between Kentish Town and the South Tottenham line - the high level line (Tottenham South Curve) from the Down side of Kentish Town, which carried trains to/from St Pancras, and closed in 1964; and the low level line (Kentish Town Curve), used by trains to/from the Widened Lines or terminating at Kentish Town, which closed when the service was diverted to Gospel Oak in 1980-81. While the Snow Hill line lost its regular passenger service in 1916, it remained open for freight and excursions until the 1960s/70s. Trains from the Loughton line could have reached the Snow Hill line via Stratford (a complete circuit) and South Tottenham. |
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Post by bassmike on Aug 30, 2012 18:24:12 GMT
Loughton to Eastbourne excursions definately used the junction at Leyton-Liverpool st reverse E.London junction- New cross gate and onwards. There are several photos of these excursions passing Shoreditch disused platform, one in particular by J.J.smith. locos used were two J 69 tanks or later type two diesels. Other Members can direct you tothe relevant sites no doubt. never heard of them going via St pancras .
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Aug 30, 2012 18:28:25 GMT
I am more than ever convinced that these didn't get routed via the ELL nor even have a reversal at Liverpool Street. Just imagine, getting held by a 'red' at Whitechapel, and Mrs Numpty opening the (slam) door, getting on the train intending to get off at Shadwell,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It doesn't bear thinking about. I am certain these went via Snow Hill tunnel or any route that didn't require a reversal en route.
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Post by metrailway on Aug 30, 2012 18:48:05 GMT
Found this link: www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS%20News%20178.pdfThere is a lot of information about Loughton station including steam and diesel summer excursions: Summer Sunday excursions were run from Loughton to various destinations, mainly in Kent and Sussex, such as the Margate area, Eastbourne and Brighton about every fortnight. These started from the centre track at Loughton and were hauled to Liverpool Street by J15 engines in steam days and latterly by diesels. These trains reversed in Liverpool Street and then ran via the East London Line to either New Cross or New Cross Gate thence over the Southern Region lines. The engines were normally run-round in the platform at Loughton, the LT Station Supervisor operating local switches to remove the current from that line while the engine was uncoupled and recoupled.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Aug 30, 2012 19:17:21 GMT
Oh well, l'm wrong on this (but at least l got Eastbourne right)
Nonetheless, l'm amazed to learn of Liv St. reversals. Were they coupled up to Southern engines there?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 19:49:35 GMT
Apropos of this discussion:
Pre-war (certainly first, if not second) the main (in terms of train count, at least) Midland suburban services were off the Widened Lines, and then round the Kentish Town curve onto the Tottenham & Hampstead to points East. St Pancras initially was pretty much main line trains to the Midlands only.
I suspect the 'high level' curve was for freight into St Pancras goods, rather then passenger traffic.
Tilbury boat trains ran from St Pancras up I think until the LTS electrification - St Pancras was a more prestigious station for such traffic than Fenchurch Street, and was (after 1912, when the Midland took over the LTS) on the right railway - Fenchurch Street was actually GE owned.
After withdrawal of the regular services in WW1, did any (special or excursion) passenger services run from the Widened Lines onto the Southern (via Snow Hill)?
How restrictive were the loading gauges on the ELL and the Widened Lines-Southern link? Was there any significant difference?
The GER (hence LNER) was on of the partners in the East London Joint Railway - this would have inclined it use that for any traffic on to the Southern lines.
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Post by bassmike on Aug 30, 2012 20:49:58 GMT
re LVst reversals, as I said previously, they used J69 tanks as far as NX gate and changed in the road next to platform line . I think that possibly when they changed to diesels, these went right through . There are several pictures taken at Shoreditch around, and on the return at NX gate via the up freight connection there. where they changed back to J69's in the steam era. Re loading gauge, the stock used appeared to be standard LNER coaches which would have been narrower than the LT A stock which ran the line until takeover by Overground. Now the tunnel is used by Cl 378's which are full mainline size.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2012 17:08:41 GMT
Many thanks, metrailway, for this excellent pointer.
Amid my normal levels of confusion and computer incompetence I'd missed this post of yours till now and, with the newly gained info. regarding the trips going to Eastbourne, had Googled using the words EASTBOURNE LOUGHTON EXCURSION STEAM and have just turned up the same page to which you have indicated.
It is an excellent article and I would think other, better informed, members would like to see it as, as you'll have seen, it refers to the route from Leyton via Liv. St. to the Southern Region.
It even refers to the Brook school, which I attended myself at a similar time.
Very many thanks.
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Post by bassmike on Aug 31, 2012 22:06:49 GMT
look up "bluebell railway archives" then go to "j.j.smiths photos and you can find several pics of-loughton-eastbourne excursions on thge ELL plus a lot more.
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Post by bassmike on Aug 31, 2012 22:08:45 GMT
also go to "loughton historical society" for articles about steam on the epping line.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2012 18:39:13 GMT
Thanks for both the above. Have telephoned the gentleman at Loughton and had a good chat. We are both almost the same age so had common memories. (most of my memories are proper common) Could only find one Eastbourne - Loughton photo on the JJ Smith site....but it was one more than I'd seen before - so ta for that.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 2, 2012 10:26:51 GMT
I am more than ever convinced that these didn't get routed via the ELL nor even have a reversal at Liverpool Street. Just imagine, getting held by a 'red' at Whitechapel, and Mrs Numpty opening the (slam) door, getting on the train intending to get off at Shadwell,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It doesn't bear thinking about. I am certain these went via Snow Hill tunnel or any route that didn't require a reversal en route. Although back then, passengers were expected to exercise common sense when travelling and to think for themselves! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 2, 2012 11:27:52 GMT
Just imagine, getting held by a 'red' at Whitechapel, and Mrs Numpty opening the (slam) door, getting on the train intending to get off at Shadwell,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But this situation could have arisen at any station where slam door stock was scheduled to pass through non-stop, whether on an excursion or otherwise. How did they cope in slam door times with the District's excursions to Southend, for example, or longer distance Met services? On BR territory this used to be a common occurrence until about ten years ago - as a regular commuter from Herne Hill I observed: 1. drivers of non-stoppers seeing a red signal ahead (a not unusual occurrence given the conflicting junction immediately beyond the platform) would stop before reaching the platform, to wait for the signal to clear. (this was alsoa common practice for Gat Ex drivers approaching Clapham Junction) 2. other drivers went dead slow through the platform hoping the signal would clear. If they did have to stop, knowledgeable commuters would pile on (the odd/even headcode system for City/Victoria services was well known to most commuters), the rule appearing to be that if you stop in a platform, whether scheduled or not, the driver must not proceed until he gets a starting signal from the guard. 3. Announcements "this train is not scheduled to stop at this station/ is not for public use" |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 2, 2012 11:47:39 GMT
This now reminds me of the great philosopher, Cyril JOAD (1891 - 1953), who once boarded such a train. Just as Joad was boarding, the guard shouted out "THIS TRAIN DOES NOT STOP HERE!!!" To which Joad shouted back, "If it does not stop here, then I have not just got on it"
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