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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 25, 2012 19:01:07 GMT
Mill Hill East-Edgware:
As this line was already complete, albeit as a single track line, why was it closed?
Highgate High Level:
Is there any chance that this station will ever re-open?
I appologize if it's been posted here before.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 19:16:26 GMT
Mill Hill East-Edgware: As this line was already complete, albeit as a single track line, why was it closed? Highgate High Level: Is there any chance that this station will ever re-open? I appologize if it's been posted here before. The Mill Hill line was closed to speed up electrification work, double tracking and bridge reconstruction. All work abandoned in 1940 because of WW2. Re Highgate HL - I would doubt if it would ever reopen - but you can never say never. So I would say not in my lifetime, and I hope I've got plenty of more years left in me yet! |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 25, 2012 19:21:04 GMT
The Mill Hill line was closed to speed up electrification work, double tracking and bridge reconstruction. All work abandoned in 1940 because of WW2. Ok. But i must admit, i don't see why they couldn't finish that after WW2? Re Highgate HL - I would doubt if it would ever reopen - but you can never say never. So I would say not in my lifetime, and I hope I've got plenty of more years left in me yet! Good point. As a bit of a follow-up question: what possible reasons would there be to re-open it? Just wondering. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 21:02:16 GMT
Finchley Central-Edgeware (LNER, ex GNR, ex EH&L) had passenger services withdrawn mid 1939 to facilitate electrification and upgrade to tube standards - this was part of the Northern Line extensions programme. Enough work had been done pre suspension of works in 1940 FC to Mill Hill East to permit reopening with tube service (but single track) in 1941, to serve MH Barracks.
Post war, shortages did not permit a quick restart of work, and the green belt led to reconsiderations...
Re reopening Highgate HL, on its own there's no point: the line through to Finsbury Park is now a parkwalk - while reinstatement as a railway would be possible, the question is where do you send the trains south of FP? Whether North of Highgate reopening to Muswell Hill/Alexandra Palace could be justified I don't know, but would provide for a 'NR' option, otherwise you have to go to East Finchley - and going further requires an LU/tube option.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 22:46:48 GMT
Mill Hill East-Edgware: As this line was already complete, albeit as a single track line, why was it closed? Highgate High Level: Is there any chance that this station will ever re-open? I appologize if it's been posted here before. The Mill Hill line was closed to speed up electrification work, double tracking and bridge reconstruction. All work abandoned in 1940 because of WW2. Re Highgate HL - I would doubt if it would ever reopen - but you can never say never. So I would say not in my lifetime, and I hope I've got plenty of more years left in me yet! Re Mill Hill East - my understanding is that the (ex LNER) line from Finchley Central to Edgware was closed for electrification etc, but the bit as far as Mill Hill East was electrified and re-opened early in the war years to cater for a large army barracks near Mill Hill East (as has been said above). The work to finish the rest of the line never happened after the war, but it must have been seen as worthwhile to keep Mill Hill East open. I think I've read that there were through ticketing options via bus 240 for some years. As for the Finsbury Park - Highgate section, I believe there's one or two bridges that are now missing, so the chances of reconstruction must be minimal, but I suppose anything is in theory possible (re-use of chunks of the line to Broad Street must have seemed unlikely at one time) There are a few published books on the Northern Heights - I don't have any to hand so the above is from memory. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 25, 2012 23:26:35 GMT
Finchley Central-Edgeware (LNER, ex GNR, ex EH&L) had passenger services withdrawn mid 1939 to facilitate electrification and upgrade to tube standards - this was part of the Northern Line extensions programme. Enough work had been done pre suspension of works in 1940 FC to Mill Hill East to permit reopening with tube service (but single track) in 1941, to serve MH Barracks. Post war, shortages did not permit a quick restart of work, and the green belt led to reconsiderations... Aha. Ok, i understand. Re reopening Highgate HL, on its own there's no point: the line through to Finsbury Park is now a parkwalk - while reinstatement as a railway would be possible, the question is where do you send the trains south of FP? Wherever the trains used to terminate, perhaps? Whether North of Highgate reopening to Muswell Hill/Alexandra Palace could be justified I don't know, but would provide for a 'NR' option, otherwise you have to go to East Finchley - and going further requires an LU/tube option. I think quite a few people would appreciate it being done then. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 25, 2012 23:33:43 GMT
Re Mill Hill East - my understanding is that the (ex LNER) line from Finchley Central to Edgware was closed for electrification etc, but the bit as far as Mill Hill East was electrified and re-opened early in the war years to cater for a large army barracks near Mill Hill East (as has been said above). The work to finish the rest of the line never happened after the war, but it must have been seen as worthwhile to keep Mill Hill East open. I think I've read that there were through ticketing options via bus 240 for some years. I know some people reading this will disagree but it seems to me that if they weren't going to complete the job, keeping Mill Hill East open is/was a bit pointless. As for the Finsbury Park - Highgate section, I believe there's one or two bridges that are now missing, so the chances of reconstruction must be minimal, but I suppose anything is in theory possible (re-use of chunks of the line to Broad Street must have seemed unlikely at one time) Nothing's impossible. As reganorak said, you can never say never. There are a few published books on the Northern Heights - I don't have any to hand so the above is from memory. You wouldn't happen to know the name of some of them? |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 25, 2012 23:42:08 GMT
You wouldn't happen to know the name of some of them? By Tube Beyond Edgware (should be quite easy to find) by Tony Beard Northern Wastes - by Jim Blake and Jonathan James might be a bit more difficult to get over to Sweden. There is also a greatly revised and greatly expanded version of the LURS magazine called 'The Northern Line Extensions' by Brian Hardy and somebody called MRFS. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 25, 2012 23:59:40 GMT
Thanks for the tips, mate! I'll be sure to check them out.
Edit: A quick look at Amazon UK and i found the first two. But i couldn't find the LURS one though. I'll keep looking for it though.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 26, 2012 0:10:40 GMT
Try the London Transport Museum shop for the LURS magazine.
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 26, 2012 0:55:54 GMT
Thanks for the tip! I found it!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2012 8:15:12 GMT
>>I think I've read that there were through ticketing options via bus 240 for some years.<<
I was the 240A, running between Edgware station and Mill Hill East. For some reason, it was operated by half-cab Leyland single-deckers for years after RFs took over most single-deck routes.
Passengers could go to Edgware station and buy a ticket to (say) Highgate via Finchley, and this would be accepted on the bus.
It was also possible for a while to buy tickets from Mill Hill The Hale to Underground stations. The tickets were sold at the nearby Midland station. So passengers went to an LMS station to buy an LNER ticket to travel on an LT bus.
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Post by castlebar on Jul 26, 2012 8:32:54 GMT
Not wishing to go off-track, but
There was also a similar L.T. through ticketing option if you turned up at Northfields Picc station and asked for a ticket to "London Airport". Around 1960, I got an ordinary B.R.type "card" rail ticket which was white with thick green bars along the edges. It was valid for rail travel to Hounslow West and "thence by bus 81B to London Airport Central". All you had to do was to show it to the bus conductor who tore it in half and collected half the ticket on the outward journey. I didn't realise other through ticketing operations existed on the UndergrounD. It saved one (old) penny than if you bought two separate fares.
Note that even in the 50s/60s, they were still using the word "thence", and BR signage stated that all tickets must be "shewn"
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Post by fleetline on Jul 26, 2012 9:54:40 GMT
Re Highgate HL - I would doubt if it would ever reopen - but you can never say never. So I would say not in my lifetime, and I hope I've got plenty of more years left in me yet! As for the Finsbury Park - Highgate section, I believe there's one or two bridges that are now missing, so the chances of reconstruction must be minimal, but I suppose anything is in theory possible (re-use of chunks of the line to Broad Street must have seemed unlikely at one time) There are a few published books on the Northern Heights - I don't have any to hand so the above is from memory. There's one 'missing' bridge from Highgate to Finsbury Park and that's the one over the ECML but current state of play means you wouldn't go east side o the tracks due to newer developments in the area. However the Parkland Walk committee would be very against it being used for rail again (they aren't too bad a bunch of people as they used hold meeting in my pervious home) but as an ex local I'm not sure restoring the link is such a great idea as its used heavily by locals for leisure. As for the books, I'm enjoying reading the Northern Heights Extension while travelling between Finchley Central and Kentish at own daily! |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 26, 2012 12:53:31 GMT
It was also possible for a while to buy tickets from Mill Hill The Hale to Underground stations. The tickets were sold at the nearby Midland station. So passengers went to an LMS station to buy an LNER ticket to travel on an LT bus. Wow. Am i the only one who got a bit confused reading this? |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 26, 2012 12:58:18 GMT
There's one 'missing' bridge from Highgate to Finsbury Park and that's the one over the ECML but current state of play means you wouldn't go east side o the tracks due to newer developments in the area. So the old route is out of the question. However the Parkland Walk committee would be very against it being used for rail again (they aren't too bad a bunch of people as they used hold meeting in my pervious home) but as an ex local I'm not sure restoring the link is such a great idea as its used heavily by locals for leisure. As i don't know exactly how the area looks i may not know what im talking about, but couldn't they just build a path right next to the line? As for the books, I'm enjoying reading the Northern Heights Extension while travelling between Finchley Central and Kentish at own daily! Seems like a good place to read it. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 0:51:42 GMT
It was also possible for a while to buy tickets from Mill Hill The Hale to Underground stations. The tickets were sold at the nearby Midland station. So passengers went to an LMS station to buy an LNER ticket to travel on an LT bus. ummm.... yes, i think i see what you mean!! I was the 240A, running between Edgware station and Mill Hill East. For some reason, it was operated by half-cab Leyland single-deckers for years after RFs took over most single-deck routes. No obvious reason - the "red rf" website is quite comprehensive about LT's central bus RF routes, but doesn't give any reason why the 240A ended up the last TD route (the 215A had a very tight spot on route) - www.red-rf.com/rf-503 All I can assume is it was considered the last route to need the higher capacity of the RFs |
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Post by grahamhewett on Jul 27, 2012 11:30:00 GMT
@puddytat - I think the TDs lingered on because of a shortage of single deckers rather than any preference as between TDs and RFs - the RFs had all entered service several years before the mass withdrawal of the TDs and presumably, there was nothing available to replace them until some double decking took place, or there had been service reductions releasing RFs from elsewhere (possibly the 80/80A).
GH
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 15:42:33 GMT
Route 240A was converted to RF in 1962, and double-decked in 1966 following rebuilding of the bridge at Mill Hill in conjunction with M1 construction.
Routes 80/80A were double-deck until 1969.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jul 27, 2012 16:33:06 GMT
@stonesfan - by 1962, I guess there would have been plenty of opportunities for RFs to have become surplus through the service reductions elsewhere that took place after 1959 ( don't have any vehicle-to-route allocations before 1962, alas, so I can't pinpoint the sources of spares any more closley).
GH
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2012 3:53:11 GMT
Another thought occurred to me overnight (my time). Part of the reason for the link from Finchley to Edgware, and the extension to Bushey, was to give access to the new and modern depot at Aldenham. The Green Belt legislation put an end to the Bushey extension, so there was less need for the link to Edgware.
It is also true that, in the mid-1930s, LT was brimming with confidence and flush with funds. It was making a profit of over £5 million a year, at a time when you could buy a newspaper for 1d (0.5p). It could afford to buy superb rolling stock and indulge in grandiose schemes. In the days before cost-benefit analysis, it strikes me that some schemes were implemented because they were possible rather than because they were needed. The electrification from Highgate to Alexandra Palace falls firmly in that category.
After the war, LT was swept into the British Transport Commission, which had neither self-confidence nor funds. Without any pressing need to double and electrify the Finchley-Edgware line, it was never going to get the funding.
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 28, 2012 11:15:24 GMT
The trackbed of the Edgware section is used for engineers trains and the transfer of materials from road to rail.
I would guess that Mill Hill East provides a useful point to thin the service to High Barnet. The area is also fairly well populated.
Most of those living in the housing beyond MHE would be unlikely to be Tube passengers nowadays.
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Post by metman on Jul 28, 2012 16:05:24 GMT
The Ally Pally section of the line was virtually ready to go. The juice rails were in place so work in some areas were quite advanced.
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 28, 2012 16:56:07 GMT
The Ally Pally section of the line was virtually ready to go. The juice rails were in place so work in some areas were quite advanced. What else was needed? |
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 28, 2012 21:41:33 GMT
The Ally Pally section of the line was virtually ready to go. The juice rails were in place so work in some areas were quite advanced. Yes and no. The goods yards hadn't been remodelled, the signalboxes were outstanding and there were several sets of points that hadn't been relaid by the LNE.. |
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Post by The Tram Man on Jul 28, 2012 22:33:53 GMT
The Ally Pally section of the line was virtually ready to go. The juice rails were in place so work in some areas were quite advanced. Yes and no. The goods yards hadn't been remodelled, the signalboxes were outstanding and there were several sets of points that hadn't been relaid by the LNE.. So there was still quite a bit of work to be done. But when you say "the signalboxes were outstanding", what do you mean? |
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Post by fleetline on Aug 1, 2012 3:26:57 GMT
So the old route is out of the question. Completely No, it's was built as a two track railway through what is now lovely build up area on mostly cutting or embankment. To build next to it will be very very expensive. As for the books, I'm enjoying reading the Northern Heights Extension while travelling between Finchley Central and Kentish at own daily! Oh yes. Even tho I know most of it, it seems there is some new gems and those diagrams, well pure railway **** :-) |
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 2, 2012 18:21:25 GMT
Thanks Mack.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2012 23:45:30 GMT
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Post by The Tram Man on Aug 4, 2012 11:57:02 GMT
Thanks for the link puddytat.
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