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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 8:09:24 GMT
It seems to me that Crossrail is not as well integrated with other transport systems as it could be, considering it cuts right through the middle of the city.
Some examples:
There is no link to Oxford Circus Station, even though it is less than 200m away from the eastern entrance to Bond Street Crossrail Station at Hanover Square. This means there is no direct interchange between Crossrail and the Victoria and Bakerloo lines.
There is no station at Holborn, so there will be no interchange with the Piccadilly Line.
In Woolwich, instead of using an existing station with interchange to DLR and National Rail (Woolwich Arsenal), a completely new station will be built only a few hundred metres away.
Also, the naming of some stations will definitely confuse the pax. For example, the station in the Docklands is called Canary Wharf, even though it is more than twice as close to Poplar Station as it is to either of the Canary Wharf Stations.
I'm not against Crossrail, but I am against Crossrail not being integrated with other transport systems as well as it could be.
Does anyone know if there are reasons why the examples mentioned above are happening? Does anyone know of any other examples of poor Crossrail integration? And finally, does anyone if there are any plans to remedy the examples mentioned above?
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Post by tecchy on Jul 2, 2012 9:21:21 GMT
I originally thought about this with the new Northern Line extension. Why don't they connect this with Vauxhall?
Basically, Vauxhall is full to capacity, it cannot take any more people. Its vastly overcrowded you do not want more people entering that station because you'll have to shut it more often and you'll have people not being able to board trains. it becomes dangerously overcrowded.
The same principle can be applied here, Oxford Circus is full, it backlogs regularly and everybody wants to use it because it is so central. If you build a station 1/2 a mile down the road it relieves the congestion from that station by giving people an alternative. For example say you wanted to go to Ealing Broadway from Oxford Circus. Crossrail will be faster than the Central Line so you will chose Crossrail. You could build a massive Oxford Circus station that has everything and can cope with x hundred thousand people per hour. But we don't have the space (or money now) to do so.
Thus you have to provide more stations within short distances to relieve congestion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 9:53:19 GMT
What if, at Oxford Circus, Crossrail and Underground have separate entrances but there are underground passages linking Bond Street Crossrail station to Oxford Circus Underground station. That would put no extra pressure on entrances/exits (in fact it would relieve pressure as pax wishing to change between Crossrail and Underground wouldn't have to use any entrances/exits whereas without passages linking the stations they would have to use 2 entrances/exit)..
On the point of having more stations to relieve congestion, I believe that Crossrail NEEDS to have more stations. This is for several reasons; better interchanges, less crowding, higher usage. There are plenty of places where stations would be of benefit to the line (eg:Holborn).
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jul 2, 2012 16:48:13 GMT
With the Canary Wharf thing, I think more people not from around the Docklands area are more familiar with Canary Wharf, and much more people will have at some point heard of Canary Wharf as opposed to Poplar. Also the Canary Wharf Group have given money to the development of the station, so that may have had an influence on the name...for example in Dubai, on their metro system, several stations are not named after the district/area they are built in, but instead near major banks.
Secondly with Oxford Circus - What tecchy said.
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Post by andypurk on Jul 2, 2012 18:37:40 GMT
On the point of having more stations to relieve congestion, I believe that Crossrail NEEDS to have more stations. This is for several reasons; better interchanges, less crowding, higher usage. There are plenty of places where stations would be of benefit to the line (eg:Holborn). Most central London Crossrail stations will already act like two stations, with double entrances at either end of the platforms. Underground stations cost a lot of money, so a compromise has to be made somewhere. Holborn already needs an expensive new station for the existing two lines, so adding Crossrail would mean yet another location with vast expansion necessary underground to fit everything in. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 2, 2012 22:26:22 GMT
What if, at Oxford Circus, Crossrail and Underground have separate entrances but there are underground passages linking Bond Street Crossrail station to Oxford Circus Underground station. That would put no extra pressure on entrances/exits (in fact it would relieve pressure as pax wishing to change between Crossrail and Underground wouldn't have to use any entrances/exits whereas without passages linking the stations they would have to use 2 entrances/exit).. On the point of having more stations to relieve congestion, I believe that Crossrail NEEDS to have more stations. This is for several reasons; better interchanges, less crowding, higher usage. There are plenty of places where stations would be of benefit to the line (eg:Holborn). It is not just entrances and exits that are under pressure at places like Oxford Circus. The escalators, corridors, ticket halls and platforms are all overloaded at busy times. You really do not want to be adding yet more people into such an environment. Also by linking stations together you end up management issues about where one station stops and the next begins. If you keep adding stations to Crossrail you increase the construction cost that is already capped, you slow the service down and you increase the size of train fleet because the round trip time would increase. I take your point about Holborn - it is a nightmare at peak times. As another poster has already said LU really needs to develop a scheme to relieve the station as it stands now. You don't need to add Crossrail too. Where life will get interesting is how Crossrail 2 would fit in and connect with Crossrail 1. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 22:47:03 GMT
Personally, I think it's great that there is no station at Oxford Circus, despite being someone who lives on the Victoria line.
Why does everyone think that Oxford Circus is the best station for a days shopping on Oxford St and it's nearby streets? Purely the name. It's about time people were educated about the likes of TCR, Bond Street or even Marble Arch as better stations to go to. Oxford Circus is horribly overcrowded and anyone who has looked at the number of trains Crossrail hopes to put through the tunnels would know that the idea that such a large quantity of people get off there in addition to the current usage would be madness.
Once a line has too many stops is just becomes a drag to use. We are talking about such small distances to walk too. I mean, really, anyone who is at Oxford Circus and thinks it's a pain to walk from O/C tube to the new western exit for TCR crossrail is crazy.
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Post by mikebuzz on Jul 2, 2012 23:42:13 GMT
Sure I read there was passive provision for a Crossrail station at Holborn. Maybe one will be built if the Underground station gets redeveloped.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 1:30:45 GMT
I mean, really, anyone who is at Oxford Circus and thinks it's a pain to walk from O/C tube to the new western exit for TCR crossrail is crazy. People complained about the 'situation' at Canary Wharf, so I'm sure some people will complain about this. Although, as long as there is good signage (as there is at Canary Wharf), the only reason people will complain is because they're too lazy to walk a couple of hundred metres. But what about Woolwich. Woolwich Arsenal is not overcrowded, so why is the Crossrail station going to be built somewhere else? Also, at Paddington, the Crossrail station will be separate from the rest of the station (other than a link to the Bakerloo Line). On another note, stations where different entrances serve different lines (ie: where one entrance to a Crossrail station with same name as an LU station can't be used to access LU lines) are sure to confuse pax. Good, clear signage could help solve this problem. It would need to be made clear which entrances should be used to access to access which lines, and where alternative entrances are located. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 4:28:34 GMT
I think you're misreading the point of Crossrail. It isn't a tube line. For hopping between nearby locations and interchanging with every other line, we have the Central line. To be honest, I'm surprised there are stations at both Bond Street and TCR. Adding a station at Holborn just because the Pic is there, seems pointless.
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 3, 2012 5:40:41 GMT
the station at Woolwich was a late addition and has to fit with the track alignment. Also nearer the housing development that is paying for it.
The Central London stations are located to relieve crowding at existing stations
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2012 6:07:28 GMT
I think you're misreading the point of Crossrail. It isn't a tube line. For hopping between nearby locations and interchanging with every other line, we have the Central line. OK. I understand that it is not a tube line. But I think that Crossrail Stations should still be integrated with other stations, just like other National Rail and LU stations are. I understand that in some cases, Canary Wharf for example, it may not be possible to have an integrated station, but in those cases steps must be taken to prevent pax getting confused. Calling the station Canary Wharf, when it is closer to several other stations is going to cause confusion. If they believe Poplar won't be a good name as few people have heard of it, then why not use a more general name such as 'Docklands' or 'Isle of Dogs'. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 3, 2012 6:48:24 GMT
I take your point about Holborn - it is a nightmare at peak times. As another poster has already said LU really needs to develop a scheme to relieve the station as it stands now. Closing the Aldwych shuttle effectively deprived Holborn of a second entrance, as most of the shuttle's users now simply walk along Kingsway to/from holborn and join the Picadilly or Cntral line there. |
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Post by castlebar on Jul 3, 2012 7:07:57 GMT
norbitonflyer has made a very good point about the Aldwych shuttle
The Aldwych shuttle should have been shown on the Central Line tube car maps. There was no reason other than typical LT concrete thinking, that it wasn't.
Pax from the Central, especially the western side of it, were more likely to have used the Aldwych branch than those on the Picc whose train stopped at Covent Garden anyway. That was a factor in the shuttle being underused.
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Post by andypurk on Jul 3, 2012 7:38:16 GMT
I mean, really, anyone who is at Oxford Circus and thinks it's a pain to walk from O/C tube to the new western exit for TCR crossrail is crazy. People complained about the 'situation' at Canary Wharf, so I'm sure some people will complain about this. Although, as long as there is good signage (as there is at Canary Wharf), the only reason people will complain is because they're too lazy to walk a couple of hundred metres. But what about Woolwich. Woolwich Arsenal is not overcrowded, so why is the Crossrail station going to be built somewhere else? Also, at Paddington, the Crossrail station will be separate from the rest of the station (other than a link to the Bakerloo Line). At Woolwich, it maybe a combination of the route of the line between the Thames tunnel and the station, plus the fact that a property developer has built the station box. EDIT Beaten to it be crusty54 And at Paddington, surely the major interchange will be with the National Rail section of the station. Given the location of the Crossrail tunnel, interchange with the Hammersmith & City will be easier than the current connection with the District line platforms. Any entrance will be able to be used to access any line, you'll just have to walk along through the Crossrail part of the station. There will need to be signs anyway, for passenger alighting from a Crossrail train. |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 3, 2012 7:48:30 GMT
norbitonflyer has made a very good point about the Aldwych shuttle The Aldwych shuttle should have been shown on the Central Line tube car maps. There was no reason other than typical LT concrete thinking, that it wasn't. Pax from the Central, especially the western side of it, were more likely to have used the Aldwych branch than those on the Picc whose train stopped at Covent Garden anyway. That was a factor in the shuttle being underused. Unfortunately the access to the Aldwych shuttle, from the Central line platforms, wouldn't be able to cope with the number who might use it during the peaks. Minor delays or an escalator out of use already lead to the station closing during peak periods owing to the congestion down to the Piccadilly line platforms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 7:49:02 GMT
Wasn't Canary Wharf station originally going to be called Isle of Dogs?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 11:53:36 GMT
West India Quay will be the closest DLR station to the Crossrail Canary Wharf station. This does fall within the district of Poplar, although so does the rest of the Canary Wharf development. It is actually built inside West India Quay (the dock), so you could call it that, although Canary Wharf is more well known. I feel that the signage between the DLR and Jubilee stations is poor, so hopefully they do a better job with this one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 7:53:19 GMT
West India Quay will be the closest DLR station to the Crossrail Canary Wharf station. This does fall within the district of Poplar, although so does the rest of the Canary Wharf development. It is actually built inside West India Quay (the dock), so you could call it that, although Canary Wharf is more well known. I feel that the signage between the DLR and Jubilee stations is poor, so hopefully they do a better job with this one. I agree; signage is key to prevent confusion (although there will always be some pax who get confused no matter what signage is installed). However, if the station is called Canary Wharf, some pax will believe that they will be able to easily interchange with the Jubilee Line. In reality getting to the Jubilee Line involves a 300-400m (or more if they use a different exit) walk at street level. If the station is called Poplar/West India Quay/Docklands/Isle of Dogs then (most) pax will realize that to get to the Jubilee Line they will either need to take the DLR or be prepared to walk. Also, wouldn't it be better to call the station at Woolwich something other than just 'Woolwich' (for example 'Woolwich North'). Otherwise some pax might get confused between this Woolwich, Woolwich Arsenal, and Woolwich Dockyard. |
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Post by ianvisits on Jul 6, 2012 9:55:46 GMT
In reality getting to the Jubilee Line involves a 300-400m (or more if they use a different exit) walk at street level. More like less than 100 yards from Crossrail, straight past the Waitrose and into the Jubilee Line station. Can be done at both street level, or there will be direct tunnel access to the shopping centre by Waitrose, and then you just walk straight ahead and down the escalators. Quick and very simple. |
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Post by fleetline on Jul 6, 2012 10:19:43 GMT
Guys, the reason Canary Wharf Crossrail station is there and not closer to the Jubilee is because all thoses nice tall buildings hav foundations. Crossrail stations are huge and unless you knock half of it down and build again you can't get closer.
As for the name change from Isle Of Digs to Canary Wharf, well the Cnary Wharf group felt it would really direct businessman to the station as unless your more local then you wouldn't have a clue. And to be far, they are hoping that a direct link to Heathrow will allow better international links as its much much easier to get too. Plus if course that Canary Wharf Crossrail station is being built by the Canary Wharf group is helping the business case and will help regenerate Abbey Wood due to its new direct links.
As for th example above about Woolwich, same could apply to Canary Wharf tho. And remember there are seven Acton stations yet no-one complains there. (stations are Acton Town, South Acton, Acton Central, West Action, North Acton, East Acton and Acton Mainline).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2012 2:05:34 GMT
More like less than 100 yards from Crossrail, straight past the Waitrose and into the Jubilee Line station. Can be done at both street level, or there will be direct tunnel access to the shopping centre by Waitrose, and then you just walk straight ahead and down the escalators. Quick and very simple. There is an underground route between the DLR and Jubilee Line at Canary Wharf but it is VERY poorly signposted, and it wouldn't sup rise me if more than half the people that use the stations don't know it's there. If the underground routes between the three stations were well signposted then that would prevent passenger confusion and would make interchanging very easy. By the way, where did you find out about the location of entrances/exits. I've only been able to find out the locations of the ticket halls online (and until now I presumed that the only exits were onto the streets outside the ticket halls). I'm not questioning the accuracy of your information, I am just interested in finding out more about the station. |
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Post by ianvisits on Jul 7, 2012 8:15:52 GMT
By the way, where did you find out about the location of entrances/exits. I've only been able to find out the locations of the ticket halls online (and until now I presumed that the only exits were onto the streets outside the ticket halls). I'm not questioning the accuracy of your information, I am just interested in finding out more about the station. I've been on site a few times and written about it on my blog. The entrance closest to Waitrose already exists, although the tunnel is currently filled with a branch of Costa Coffee. When Crossrail opens, the coffee shop closes. There will also be another direct entrance into the shopping centre via the spur being built just to the east of the DLR station. |
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Post by messiah on Jul 7, 2012 10:02:10 GMT
In reality getting to the Jubilee Line involves a 300-400m (or more if they use a different exit) walk at street level. More like less than 100 yards from Crossrail, straight past the Waitrose and into the Jubilee Line station. Can be done at both street level, or there will be direct tunnel access to the shopping centre by Waitrose, and then you just walk straight ahead and down the escalators. Quick and very simple. I thought the same, but a look at google maps suggests it is further than i thought. You not only have to walk past Waitrose but there is also the Foxtons building block, and the HSBC block. |
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 7, 2012 11:32:58 GMT
The station being called Woolwich is fine.
North Woolwich is the area on the north side of the river so this would be more confusing.
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Post by ianvisits on Jul 7, 2012 15:45:43 GMT
I thought the same, but a look at google maps suggests it is further than i thought. You not only have to walk past Waitrose but there is also the Foxtons building block, and the HSBC block. I live in docklands and walk that route most days - at most 2 minutes. There are tube stations that take longer to switch between lines. I presume there is a psychological barrier that suggests 2 minutes between buildings is worse than 5 minutes within one building. |
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Post by messiah on Jul 7, 2012 18:28:43 GMT
I thought the same, but a look at google maps suggests it is further than i thought. You not only have to walk past Waitrose but there is also the Foxtons building block, and the HSBC block. I live in docklands and walk that route most days - at most 2 minutes. There are tube stations that take longer to switch between lines. I presume there is a psychological barrier that suggests 2 minutes between buildings is worse than 5 minutes within one building. I'm sure that from coming out of the jubilee line box at rush hour to the end of the HSBC building in rush hour would take 3-4 minutes even going underground as much as possible. Coming out of the East side exit similarly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 5:02:21 GMT
Where will the spur from the Crossrail Station to near the DLR station come out? Are there any other entrances/exits to the Crossrail Station?
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