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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 12:30:50 GMT
www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/7721.aspxTwelve million pounds is to be spent on installing wide aisle ticket gates at Tube stations in London. The gates will make stations more accessible for wheelchair users, older people, parents with children and travellers with luggage. The funding will allow 140 new wide aisle gates to be fitted primarily at step-free stations, busy stations and those where a large number of passengers carry luggage or use prams. The first stations where work is set to begin include Victoria, King's Cross St Pancras and Liverpool Street. Passengers using the wide aisle gates to access the Tube will no longer have to rely on members of staff to let them throughThe gates will also include easy access points for wheelchair Oyster users and a delayed gate closing time. Where only one wide aisle gate is installed at a station it can operate for passengers travelling in both directions. The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "This investment is part of our commitment to making the Underground accessible to every Londoner and visitor to our city. "Getting around the Capital by public transport has never been more accessible and we are committed to making further improvements." Sooooo how will Mr Annual Z1-6 Travelcard that won't insert his ticket in the gates get out now? Or can we imagine the confusion of "whose Oyster card opened the gate and who get's the unresolved journey!"
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 23, 2008 12:50:28 GMT
What is wrong with having an assistant on the gate?
The problem with this is they can now say there is no need to have someone on the gate - therefore there is now nobody to fob you off when your Oyster card screws up...
Isn't it also perfect for people evading the fare? Just nip in behind the person going through, what with the long closing time.
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Post by c5 on Mar 23, 2008 17:18:23 GMT
There seems to be little thought at the installation of the things. They have been put in at Victoria in the most stupid of locations.
Now, I wonder if they will be put in at locations with a higer risk of fare evasion? Probably if it means that they acn reduce the staffing numbers. You can then have 5 yobs travelling through on one freedom pass...
Me thinks the Evening Standard's Dick Murry ought to do some digging into these and their backward step in service. Go to Victoria between the peaks. Dont ask TfL under FOI for evasion figures as they probably won't accuratly reflect the true amount.
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Post by glasgowdriver on Mar 23, 2008 17:54:02 GMT
hi can i just add to this post,
first of all the station i work at we used to have one of those wide aisle gates and it was an absolute nightmare as the gate used to switch from in/out every 5 seconds and was a complete night mate as people used to q like mad to get in and out we had this single gate for about a year and a row of normal gates then about a month ago we got out 2nd gate installed which meant we have one in and one out problem solved you would think.
it is not passengers are just not used to using these gates and staff are still having to assist people thro the gate as they don't now were to put tickets in or touch oysters and the ques are getting even bigger i think there a good idea but we had to loose two of our normal gates to get this knew gate installed so the peak is just as busy as ever its gonna be a nightmare in the summer when its really busy with tourists and groups of kids i only hope kings x know what there getting when they get theres installed god help them!!!
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Post by happybunny on Mar 24, 2008 0:14:41 GMT
Hold on let me get this right... for years LUL have had problems with fare evasion. From my time on the gateline one of the most common ways of punters carrying out fare evasion was "doubling up". For anyone not familiar with the term, it is pretty much self explanatory. When passengers double up through the gates, basically two people go through when the gate is operated legitimately for ONE person, with ONE valid ticket. Example: Passenger with valid ticket inserts ticket/touches oyster, gate opens, passenger plus second passenger (without ticket) pass through together, very close to one another, ticket gate thinks it is just one person as it is done very quickly and the two people are very close.
In my experience the two people usually know each other, and it is a double act. However sometimes not! And quite often it happens so quickly, the innocent person in front is un-aware of what just happened.
Now as we know, the gates are equipped with an alarms and sensors, so that if it detects, or thinks that "doubling-up" is occurring, a loud high pitched alarm buzzer goes off. Thus alerting staff, so they can challenge the individual(s).
Now TfL have had this brainwave to invent gates twice as large and open for twice as long. Therefor "doubling-up" could occur very very easily. So, I am very very confused... are they trying to ENCOURAGE fare evasion... why not have family sized gates? Where one ticket will let 5 people in? Why not get rid of the god dam gates altogether? In fact lets PAY the punters to come use the tube??
Someone has gone mad!
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 24, 2008 0:18:35 GMT
Indeed, I fail to see what is wrong with having a manual gate, where an assistant can supervise traffic in and out as required.
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Post by compsci on Mar 24, 2008 9:37:43 GMT
The newer cubic gates open and close so slowly that doubling up appears to be easy even in the normal gates. I've seen a few people doing it at Cambridge, where people whose tickets don't work get fed up with waiting for the hired thugs (employed by a private security company and probably not legally allowed to operate gates or sell tickets) to wake up and spend the next five minutes remembering which button to push to let them out.
The wide gates seem to have particular trouble noticing that the person who opened them has passed through, and then seem to stay open for an indefinite period, providing a laughably easy exit route for someone with an invalid or no ticket.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 11:14:19 GMT
One question I have is why install them at stations without step free like Kings Cross (Tube ticket hall)?
Personally I think that it would be better to staff the gateline. Not only does it give a sense of security for customers who feel unsafe on the network (especially at night) but I can't help thinking this is a way of reducing gateline staff. Having staff on the gateline for me is what makes the Tube feel more welcoming for me as you know your not alone unlike National Rail alot of the time.
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Post by markt on Mar 24, 2008 11:18:55 GMT
They're spreading.
Aberdeen has two of the wider gates, as well as all the platform staff and gateline staff milling around.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 13:51:35 GMT
Another question - is this the best way to spend £12 million?
Now I understand with new gatelines, but what LU are doing is replacing perfectly usable manual gates and replacing these new wide gates.
So the net benefit is you no longer need to speak to a member of staff - Mmmm see a potential to remove the gateline staff here.
But how could the £12 million have been spent on improving step free access at stations where a quick fix could work e.g. Hanger Lane, North Acton.
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Post by markt on Mar 24, 2008 13:55:55 GMT
Surely the gatelines will still need some form of supervision for when they fail or if someone gets trapped in the paddles?
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Post by compsci on Mar 24, 2008 14:15:16 GMT
Cambridge has three of the damned things, a response to the ever vocal bike lobby. This does not stop the chaos when a family of cyclists (I even saw one with tandems, which are banned outright by the conditions of carriage) arrive at the gates, suddenly discover that they need to get their tickets out and then block all access for everyone else.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 24, 2008 14:18:50 GMT
Surely the gatelines will still need some form of supervision for when they fail or if someone gets trapped in the paddles? That is the problem, and if they use this as an excuse to remove assistants from the gateline, what happens when your Oyster fails / ticket is unreadable? You stand there banging on the assistance window? |
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Post by North End on Mar 24, 2008 22:52:06 GMT
Another question - is this the best way to spend £12 million? Now I understand with new gatelines, but what LU are doing is replacing perfectly usable manual gates and replacing these new wide gates. So the net benefit is you no longer need to speak to a member of staff - Mmmm see a potential to remove the gateline staff here. But how could the £12 million have been spent on improving step free access at stations where a quick fix could work e.g. Hanger Lane, North Acton. Whilst there *may* be a potential to remove gateline staff, this is certainly not the primary motivation behind these new gates. As you may be aware, LU/TFL has a department called "Accessibility & Inclusion", and (strangely enough!) their remit is to dream up ideas which make the system more accessible and inclusive. They engage closely with various disability and minority pressure groups, and the issue of manual gates has long been a sore point. It was not considered to be sufficiently inclusive that wheelchair or encumbered customers would have to be let through by a member of staff, whilst other customers could pass themselves through the normal gates. From a personal perspective, I've stood waiting at manual gates on many occasions with a bicycle or luggage, so IMO these aren't as bad as they appear - though of course if the gateline is being managed properly by a proactive and motivated CSA then delays at manual gates should be very rare. |
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Post by Alight on Mar 30, 2008 21:06:39 GMT
I used them at T5 - were quite slow at opening and closing but were effective as they mean more people with luggage can use them at any one time, compared to the single manual gates which allow one at a time. So they prove usefull in a station like Heathrow Terminal, when a line of them is used.
but
12 million pounds! They are having a laff surely?
Like many comment on above, are they really necessary when only 1 per station will be installed? Its not like the people who currently manually operate them are costing the LU as they double up as a CSA surely? So it actually puts more variety in the job.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jun 20, 2008 13:39:21 GMT
Indeed, I fail to see what is wrong with having a manual gate, where an assistant can supervise traffic in and out as required. Could someone please clarify. Is it permissable for a gate line to be unsupervised. I was in London at the weekend with 3 items of luggage, including a large wheeled case. At Kings Cross, I used the new wide gate which I thought was excellent. However, at my destination station (much smaller) there was no wide gate, only a gate that needed to be released by staff. I touched out and must have stood there for a good 5 minutes before a member of staff eventually let me through. There wasn't even a bell to summon assistance. Surely this is not very satisfactory in the event of an emergency, qute apart from being very poor customer service? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 14:40:56 GMT
Many stories go around the network regarding this exact question. The last one I heard was there is no requirment to have a gateline directly staffed BUT the station must be staffed AND staff must be able to release somebody trapped in a gate within a reasonable amount of time.
One person on duty has many duties to undertake - releasing the manual gate is just one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 16:31:59 GMT
I was in London at the weekend with 3 items of luggage, including a large wheeled case. At Kings Cross, I used the new wide gate which I thought was excellent. However, at my destination station (much smaller) there was no wide gate, only a gate that needed to be released by staff. I touched out and must have stood there for a good 5 minutes before a member of staff eventually let me through. There wasn't even a bell to summon assistance. Surely this is not very satisfactory in the event of an emergency, qute apart from being very poor customer service? It'd depend on the emergency - station evacuation etc includes the emergency release of all gates, which can be done remotely from I believe a minimum of three places on most stations: Supervisor's office, the gateline itself, and the ticket office. Normal practice when intentionally leaving the gateline at the group of stations I was with was normally to leave the side leaf of the manual gate open; if you knew it was going to brief then another option was to get the ticket office or, depending on the station layout, the SS to monitor the gate and use the manual gate release when someone needed letting through. The trouble with a press for help button is the amount of abuse it'd get from schoolkids/drunks/the station's idiots of choice. wide aisle gates are still in their infancy, and priority obviously goes to stations that have large numbers of customers with luggage, or disabled access - for instance, Oakwood has received one since the lift was installed. End ramble. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 17:36:54 GMT
The gatelines aren't designed to be left unstaffed. The initial installation method statement and agreements by the trades unions allowed for gates to be constantly monitored.
LU then introduced remote monitoring of gatelines which initially meant a booking office staff member could monitor the gateline from a booking office (or the station supervisor), which was deemed as a place of safety and thus was safer than having gateline staff in place. This was allowed at locations that had a clear and un-interupted view of the gateline from the booking office.
LU then decided to push for remote monitoring via CCTV and this was one of the ideas behind the group control room (i.e. staff no need to be on station). HMRI didn't allow LU to introduce this idea, however the use of CCTV by station on the station was allowed.
Standard practice used to be to leave all the gates open, if the member of staff was called away from the booking office/ gateline. But when Oyster PAYG became famous leaving gates open this practice was "out-lawed" and huge pressure performance management was introduced so station supervisors now - as mentioned - leave the manual gate open OR the side leaf (which tricks the performance figures into thinking the manual gate is locked).
However with the ever present "performance management" duty managers around, sometimes station staff will leave gates locked when they may be a few mins away.
Is this unsafe? Not hugely TBH, but certainly not world class.
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