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Post by 1018509 on Jun 10, 2012 15:31:37 GMT
This may have been (almost certainly) discussed here before in which case my apologies. Does the disused section of line between Green Park and Charing Cross have any signalling installed now?
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Jun 10, 2012 16:26:21 GMT
This may have been (almost certainly) discussed here before in which case my apologies. Does the disused section of line between Green Park and Charing Cross have any signalling installed now? Yes it has the TBTC signalling. The Jubilee Line between Green Park and Charing Cross is not disused, its just not used by passenger trains. |
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Post by v52gc on Jun 10, 2012 17:32:18 GMT
**by passenger trains in service. (just to avoid confusion  |
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Post by 1018509 on Jun 10, 2012 18:49:57 GMT
As all the infrastructure is there it seems a waste not to use it. I assume that some sort of computer modelling showed that having the line open as a branch wasn't feasible once the section to Stratford opened.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 10, 2012 19:34:37 GMT
As all the infrastructure is there it seems a waste not to use it. I assume that some sort of computer modelling showed that having the line open as a branch wasn't feasible once the section to Stratford opened. Sending trains to Charing Cross would create gaps in the service towards Stratford. The demand is such that it wouldn't be feasible to reduce the service - trains are packed full in the peak hours |
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 10, 2012 19:42:01 GMT
As all the infrastructure is there it seems a waste not to use it. I assume that some sort of computer modelling showed that having the line open as a branch wasn't feasible once the section to Stratford opened. Sending trains to Charing Cross would create gaps in the service towards Stratford. The demand is such that it wouldn't be feasible to reduce the service - trains are packed full in the peak hours The escalators at Charing Cross were also life expired and would have cost a huge amount to replace. Not the overriding factor, I'm sure, but certainly a contributory one. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 20:06:29 GMT
Sending trains to Charing Cross would create gaps in the service towards Stratford. The demand is such that it wouldn't be feasible to reduce the service - trains are packed full in the peak hours The escalators at Charing Cross were also life expired and would have cost a huge amount to replace. Not the overriding factor, I'm sure, but certainly a contributory one. Interesting what you suggest about the MYA type escalators at Charing Cross. All the other ones installed around the same period 1977-79 (including Baker Street and Bond Street) are still operational and are certainly not life expired, even 12+ years after the opening of the extension (unless they were deliberately not maintained to the same standard as the others, knowing they had a short life ahead of them). Moreover, those at Charing Cross were only 20 years old when they were redundant in 1999. I might suggest they could have been due for heavy maintenance of some sort in 1999 if they had been kept. Even the LHD-M escalators at Charing Cross (1960s - Trafalgar Square side) have only just been replaced in 2012. Just a thought ..... |
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Post by jardine01 on Jun 10, 2012 20:13:44 GMT
I presume trains will be driven in PM mode then or ATO? However its a shame that charing Cross station closed it was in very good condition and probably still is looking at a recent video on Youtube of it. If anybody has watched get ahead of the games campain that was filmed there
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Jun 10, 2012 20:21:34 GMT
The escalators at Charing Cross were also life expired and would have cost a huge amount to replace. Not the overriding factor, I'm sure, but certainly a contributory one. Interesting what you suggest about the MYA type escalators at Charing Cross. All the other ones installed around the same period 1977-79 (including Baker Street and Bond Street) are still operational and are certainly not life expired, even 12+ years after the opening of the extension (unless they were deliberately not maintained to the same standard as the others, knowing they had a short life ahead of them). Moreover, those at Charing Cross were only 20 years old when they were redundant in 1999. I might suggest they could have been due for heavy maintenance of some sort in 1999 if they had been kept. Even the LHD-M escalators at Charing Cross (1960s - Trafalgar Square side) have only just been replaced in 2012. Just a thought ..... Hmm! Interesting info reg. I too, like londonstuff, was under the impression that part of the justification of the closure of the CX branch was the state of the escalators. I have certainly read/heard it somewhere. |
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Post by 1018509 on Jun 10, 2012 20:46:04 GMT
My thoughts are that the accountants that run railways these days grabbed the first opportunity they could to close a section of line that would not be noticed by too many people to save a few grubby quid.
Sad really because the branch wasn't even given the chance to see if it could be viable.
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Fahad
In memoriam
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Post by Fahad on Jun 10, 2012 20:48:00 GMT
I'm doubtful it could be - those passengers from the north of the Jubilee needing to go to Charing Cross have a simple cross-platform interchange at Baker Street, and those needing to go somewhere in the vicinity have a nice scenic walk, with plenty of bus services, from Green Park or Westminster
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Fahad
In memoriam
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Post by Fahad on Jun 10, 2012 20:56:45 GMT
How long does the Green Park reversal move take?
Would it be worth moving the scissors crossover closer to Green Park?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 21:01:36 GMT
The Green Park 'reversal' as such isn't at Green Park. Detrain Green Park and run empty to Charing Cross and back. So it's the running time GRP-CHX and the reversal time at CHX that determines the 'reversal time at 'Green Park'. I suppose it could be done in 9 minutes Green Park SB to Green Park NB) with a bit of luck and a fair wind.
Almost impossible to re-locate the crossover at Charing Cross nearer to Green Park - megga bucks job!!
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Post by londonstuff on Jun 10, 2012 21:04:43 GMT
The escalators at Charing Cross were also life expired and would have cost a huge amount to replace. Not the overriding factor, I'm sure, but certainly a contributory one. Interesting what you suggest about the MYA type escalators at Charing Cross. All the other ones installed around the same period 1977-79 (including Baker Street and Bond Street) are still operational and are certainly not life expired, even 12+ years after the opening of the extension (unless they were deliberately not maintained to the same standard as the others, knowing they had a short life ahead of them). Moreover, those at Charing Cross were only 20 years old when they were redundant in 1999. I might suggest they could have been due for heavy maintenance of some sort in 1999 if they had been kept. Even the LHD-M escalators at Charing Cross (1960s - Trafalgar Square side) have only just been replaced in 2012. Just a thought ..... That was the reason given by Rob Curling on the Jubilee line Driver's Eye View DVD and I'm pretty sure I've heard that from other sources too. It did go on to say that some of the parts from these escalators were salvaged to be used in other escalators; perhaps this is why they're still going strong? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 21:07:00 GMT
Interesting what you suggest about the MYA type escalators at Charing Cross. All the other ones installed around the same period 1977-79 (including Baker Street and Bond Street) are still operational and are certainly not life expired, even 12+ years after the opening of the extension (unless they were deliberately not maintained to the same standard as the others, knowing they had a short life ahead of them). Moreover, those at Charing Cross were only 20 years old when they were redundant in 1999. I might suggest they could have been due for heavy maintenance of some sort in 1999 if they had been kept. Even the LHD-M escalators at Charing Cross (1960s - Trafalgar Square side) have only just been replaced in 2012. Just a thought ..... Hmm! Interesting info reg. I too, like londonstuff, was under the impression that part of the justification of the closure of the CX branch was the state of the escalators. I have certainly read/heard it somewhere. I'm not saying that the 'escalators' weren't a reason given by someone or other - I seem to recall something similar too but can't pinpoint where. However, the 'Extension' went via Westminster because of the politicians. If the line had continued beyond Charing Cross to Fenchurch Street and wherever as originally planned, the (Jubilee) escalators at Charing Cross wouldn't have been in question and would be trundling up and down like the rest of them today. |
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Fahad
In memoriam
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Post by Fahad on Jun 10, 2012 21:52:10 GMT
If there is any move worth hiding on a train during detrainment for, it's that one  |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 10, 2012 22:03:04 GMT
If there is any move worth hiding on a train during detrainment for, it's that one |
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Post by melikepie on Jun 10, 2012 22:16:00 GMT
I'm not saying that the 'escalators' weren't a reason given by someone or other - I seem to recall something similar too but can't pinpoint where. However, the 'Extension' went via Westminster because of the politicians. If the line had continued beyond Charing Cross to Fenchurch Street and wherever as originally planned, the (Jubilee) escalators at Charing Cross wouldn't have been in question and would be trundling up and down like the rest of them today. I'm just going to speak in support of the current route as place like Rotherhithe and Bermondsey wouldn't have a tube line otherwise. Hmmm, I keep hearing about the Fleet Line extending to many places but what was the exact route? |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jun 10, 2012 22:19:07 GMT
If there is any move worth hiding on a train during detrainment for, it's that one Please can I ask people *not* to do this. If you attempt to hide, and the member of staff carrying out the detrainment does not see you, then this results in an overcarry. Apart from the fact that this is reportable to the HMRI (now ORR), the member of staff will get in trouble, and the incident will be recorded on their record, which in turn could contribute to potentially losing their job if the member of staff has a poor record. |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jun 10, 2012 22:23:54 GMT
Interesting what you suggest about the MYA type escalators at Charing Cross. All the other ones installed around the same period 1977-79 (including Baker Street and Bond Street) are still operational and are certainly not life expired, even 12+ years after the opening of the extension (unless they were deliberately not maintained to the same standard as the others, knowing they had a short life ahead of them). Moreover, those at Charing Cross were only 20 years old when they were redundant in 1999. I might suggest they could have been due for heavy maintenance of some sort in 1999 if they had been kept. Even the LHD-M escalators at Charing Cross (1960s - Trafalgar Square side) have only just been replaced in 2012. Just a thought ..... That was the reason given by Rob Curling on the Jubilee line Driver's Eye View DVD and I'm pretty sure I've heard that from other sources too. It did go on to say that some of the parts from these escalators were salvaged to be used in other escalators; perhaps this is why they're still going strong? I don't know the correct answer, however I would suspect that what was really meant is that the escalators were *due a major refurbishment*, which wasn't deemed cost-effective given the future prospects for the station. I doubt they were really life-expired, if memory serves Marylebone and Swiss Cottage still retain their MH / MY type escalators which are considerably older than 20 years! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 22:34:45 GMT
Indeed is the case. Marylebone (1943), Swiss Cottage (1939), Earl's Court Exhibition (1937) and Greenford (1947).
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Post by messiah on Jun 10, 2012 22:57:13 GMT
My thoughts are that the accountants that run railways these days grabbed the first opportunity they could to close a section of line that would not be noticed by too many people to save a few grubby quid. Sad really because the branch wasn't even given the chance to see if it could be viable. I presume that you haven't ever seen how busy the Jubilee line is in the rush hour peak. If the Charing Cross branch had been left open when the extension was made, there would have been a lot of pressure to make it off-peak only, considering the passenger loads through to Canary Wharf from Waterloo and London Bridge during the rush hour. Incidentally I remember hearing that the original plan was not to have stations at Bermondsey and Southwark, and that Simon Hughes was particularly proud that he campaigned successfully for these stations. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 23:23:27 GMT
I'm not saying that the 'escalators' weren't a reason given by someone or other - I seem to recall something similar too but can't pinpoint where. However, the 'Extension' went via Westminster because of the politicians. If the line had continued beyond Charing Cross to Fenchurch Street and wherever as originally planned, the (Jubilee) escalators at Charing Cross wouldn't have been in question and would be trundling up and down like the rest of them today. I'm just going to speak in support of the current route as place like Rotherhithe and Bermondsey wouldn't have a tube line otherwise. Hmmm, I keep hearing about the Fleet Line extending to many places but what was the exact route? It was going to go to Aldwych, Ludgate Circus, Canon Street, Fenchurch Street, St. Katharine Docks, Wapping, Surrey Docks, Millwall, North Greenwich, Custom House, then split to Beckton and Sivertown, Thamesmead West, Thamesmead Central. As well as the tunnels built east of Charing Cross, there was a short section of tunnel dug near New Cross. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 23:34:49 GMT
I think the Thamesmead route was the Fleet Line Mk 2 - the earlier plans were before Thamesmead happened, and plan was to extend south of New Cross to take over possibly the Addiscombe / Hayes branches (I can't find a proper source for this, but I think the plans were somewhat vague) There is a feature on ianvisits' blog about the New Cross tunnel - www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2011/04/03/south-londons-abandoned-tube-tunnel/ |
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Post by rapidtransitman on Jun 10, 2012 23:58:03 GMT
@hmmm, I keep hearing about the Fleet Line extending to many places but what was the exact route?
See the New Fleet Line thread on this board. There are other references to it's possible route thru the City and beyond, based on various studies done in the 70s, as well as ideas posited by posters on this board.
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Post by crusty54 on Jun 11, 2012 5:24:11 GMT
The Fleet Line was going to terminate at Lewisham. The land was purchased and later used for the DLR and the bus station.
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Post by jardine01 on Jun 11, 2012 8:41:52 GMT
I agree with North End here nobody should try to stay on a train out of service or to siding moves. Although some people might find it temping it could land the driver and passenger in serious trouble. I have heard people commenting on Youtube saying they went on the Kennington loop but ended up staying there for a while! Of course the driver is not going to know this. Fair enough a confused tourist or somebody who fell asleep but not people who deliberately want to do this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 9:52:25 GMT
The plan for the Fleet Line (in the 1970s) was Stage 1 Stanmore-Baker St-Charing Cross (built and renamed Jubilee); then Stage 2 on via Aldwych & Ludgate Circus to Fenchurch St; Stage 3 via Surrey Docks to Lewisham (with branch to New Cross Gate); and Stage 4 taking over the BR Mid-Kent line to Hayes and Addiscombe. With the start of the Docklands redevelopment there were various 'River Line' proposals to serve it: one of these was a tube line from Fenchurch St more or less due east to Silvertown, turn south to serve Woolwich then into Thamesmead. I don't know whether (or how) this would have combined with or replaced Fleet Line Stages 3 & 4.
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 11, 2012 9:56:17 GMT
The plan for the Fleet Line (in the 1970s) was Stage 1 Stanmore-Baker St-Charing Cross (built and renamed Jubilee); then Stage 2 on via Aldwych & Ludgate Circus to Fenchurch St; Stage 3 via Surrey Docks to Lewisham (with branch to New Cross Gate) Plans for these stages were sufficiently far advanced to have Programme Machine working considered - 7 PMs at Surrey Docks! |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jun 11, 2012 12:13:02 GMT
@hmmm, I keep hearing about the Fleet Line extending to many places but what was the exact route? Somewhere I've got a full set of deposited plans (or something of that ilk) for the Fleet. Blowed if I can find them. EDIT: I have found this - if it's of any use:  |
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