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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 13:34:33 GMT
Something that I've been wondering about with the Northern Heights plan, the bit between Mill Hill East and Bushey Heath stations. The line diagrams that I've seen (for instance on Jay Forman's video and at underground-history.co.uk/northernh.php) show the current Northern Line ending at Edgware, and the line coming from Mill Hill East continuing northwards to Bushey Heath. Why was this? And if the line had have been opened, would trains now go to Bushey Heath from the Hampstead line, or still exclusively from Finchley?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 14, 2012 14:27:44 GMT
Something that I've been wondering about with the Northern Heights plan, the bit between Mill Hill East and Bushey Heath stations. Mill Hill East - Edgware would have been built on the formation of the old LNER branch to Edgware LNE: Edgware LNE was going to become the northern terminus on that branch for goods services. Beyond Edgware (UndergrounD) would purely have been tube services - there would have been surface stock detectors at Edgware station throat looking towards Mill Hill East. The line diagrams that I've seen (for instance on Jay Forman's video and at underground-history.co.uk/northernh.php) show the current Northern Line ending at Edgware, and the line coming from Mill Hill East continuing northwards to Bushey Heath. This is a complicated story - there have been a couple of books published on the Northern Heights - they have the space to give the story better justice. Why was this? And if the line had have been opened, would trains now go to Bushey Heath from the Hampstead line, or still exclusively from Finchley? Hmm, well I've seen some stock planning sheets for the New Works programme of 1935 - 40 and the Northern Line was split into 2 sections (note that the planning document does not cover south of Moorgate/Leicester Square): - Northern (Morden - Edgware)
- Aldenham - Finchley Central 7tph peak
- High Barnet - Finchley Central 7tph peak
- Finchley Central - Archway 21tph peak
- Archway - Euston 21 tph peak
- Euston - Moorgate (ex-Highgate) 7tph peak
- Euston - Leicester Square (ex-Highgate) 14tph peak
- All M - E trains to be comprised of new stock
- GN&C section
- High Barnet - East Finchley 7tph peak
- East Finchley - Highgate 7tph peak
- Highgate - Finsbury Park LNE 14 tph peak
- Finsbury Park LNE - Moorgate and Finsbury Park LPTB - Moorgate 14 tph peak giving a total of 28 tph.
- GN&C section to use existing tube stock, with 5 new trains.
The next bit of text is also germane, the bit in blockquote below I wrote in response to this question posed in Underground News: Northern Line Operating Patterns
Sources culled together over the years suggest:
- Bushey Heath to Kennington via Archway and Charing Cross.
- Edgware to Morden via Hampstead and Bank.
- Edgware to Kennington via Hampstead and Charing Cross.
- High Barnet to Kennington via Charing Cross.
- Archway (Finchley Central in the peaks) to Morden via Bank.
- East Finchley (High Barnet in the peaks) and Alexandra Palace to Moorgate, coupling/uncoupling at Highgate (High Level).
- FinsburyPark(tube) to Moorgate (peaks only).
> > Does anyone care to try to put that in a diagram?This is an interesting (and really quite complicated) one to answer; unfortunately I only have some of the train description information to hand, it is certainly something that exercised the minds of the signalling department over several years. I have seen an early plan FS 16577/ that covers Moorgate (N City) and Camden Town northwards; this is a very early drawing [unfortunately undated] in the development of the Northern Heights as it shows signalboxes that are able to be switched out at Mill Hill East and Mill Hill (The Hale), Crouch End and Finsbury Park No 7 signalbox. However, although there is no date, the full wording of the intended platform signs are given and it refers to the 'Morden - Edgware line', which would date it to not much later than March 1937 - at this remove, we cannot be sure if the use of M-E terminology stopped immediately in planning documents. This is supplanted by a later drawing FS 18688/B issued in 1939 and modified twice in March 1940 which does not give the platform sign wording, but reflects the later stage of planning with ground frames rather than signalboxes at the Mill Hills and Crouch End. I have also seen FS 18688/5 issued in January 1940 that has all the wording for every signalbox annunciator on the northbound road. Unfortunately I've never managed to find the southbound equivalent. None of these three drawings give any detail about what train description could be set up or displayed on the Alexandra Palace branch. It is worth comparing the public (platform sign) and working (signalbox) displays from FS 16577/ and FS 18688/5; my apologies for this being rather a list-based analysis, it is a difficult subject to present as a narrative.
Beginning with FS 16577/ of the northern originating points High Barnet would have had 'West End', 'City via Finsbury Park' and 'City via Kings Cross'; Bushey Heath and Edgware both had 'West End via Golders Green', 'West End via Archway' and 'City' via any of Golders Green, Archway or Finsbury Park. High Barnet and Mill Hill to Finchley Central SB would have had 'City' via Kings X or Finsbury Park or plain 'West End' on the Platform signs.
The first NB sign on FS 16577/ (reading the diagram from left to right) is at Finchley Central, giving the options of 'High Barnet, 'Edgware', 'Bushey Heath', 'Elstree South' and 'Stops Here', FS 18688/5 offers the additional option of 'Goods' - obviously for the Edgware and High Barnet directions only, there would have been no goods trains north of Edgware. East Finchley offered the same possibilities NB with the addition of 'Finchley Central', SB was split into the 'LNER side' which gave the option of 'City via Finsbury Pk' and the 'Archway Side' which gave two options of 'City via Kings X' or 'West End'. The cabin annunciators in FS 18688/5 give the following options: (Next Train from Park Junction): High Barnet, Edgware, Elstree South, Finchley Central, Bushey Heath, Stops Here and Goods; (Next Train from Archway): Finchley Central, High Barnet, Edgware, Elstree South, Bushey Heath, Stops Here - the same drawing also allows for terminating trains at Colindale, with Edgware, Bushey Heath and Elstree South also capable of indication.
Moving further south, we obviously have a disparity as there would have been no platform signs at Park Junction! So all we can do is to compare the platform signs for both the Highgates and the signalbox annunciators at Park Junction. For the public FS 16577/ gives the signs at Highgate (Low Level) SB as either 'City' or 'West End'; NB as 'Finchley Central' 'High Barnet', 'Edgware', 'Elstree South' 'Bushey Heath'. For the signalmen FS 18688/5 gives Finchley Central, High Barnet, Edgware, Elstree South, Bushey Heath and Stops Here - confusingly (because of the way the diagram is laid out), the possibilities for Golders Green are given next to Archway: Colindale, Edgware, Elstree South, Bushey Heath, Depot and Stops Here. For Park Junction FS 18688/5 gives High Barnet, Alexandra Palace, East Finchley, Finchley Central, Goods, Edgware, Elstree South, Bushey Heath, Stops Here. The 'Stops Here' for Park Junction is for trains working into Highgate or Highgate Woods siding; I've never seen any evidence for coupling or uncoupling at Highgate High Level. Even with 83 levers in the signal box at Park Junction there were not enough levers! I wonder if this suggestion arose from the ability to show a 'Highgate' description in Crouch End, Finsbury Park No 7 and Drayton Park signal boxes - this would have been to detrain passengers, rather than splitting/combining, I feel.
South of Archway and Park Junction, FS 16577/ gives 'Archway' ('Stops Here' at Archway), 'Finchley Central', 'High Barnet', 'Edgware', 'Elstree South', 'Bushey Heath' on the NB as far south as Camden Town; NB from Moorgate (NCL) to Highgate) the options for the public were 'Finsbury Park' (not displayed after Drayton Park and 'Stops Here' at Finsbury Park), 'Alexandra Palace', 'East Finchley', 'Finchley Central', 'High Barnet', 'Edgware', 'Elstree South', 'Bushey Heath', 'Highgate'. Here we have one of the little mysteries of the Northern Heights - as planned in FS 16577/, which if you remember is undated (I suspect at the very latest it would have been drawn would have been aroundabout the autumn of 1938, although it used the earlier name of the Northern Line). This drawing shows a scissors crossover at the southern end of Finsbury Park High Level; the NB facing crossover is shown as worked (most probably from Finsbury Park No 7 signal box), but the SB facing crossover is denoted as 'This handworked crossover has not been catered for in the T.D. scheme, if moves are made over this crossover the T.D. will be out of step'. The NB facing crossover had been dropped from the plans by late 1939, as FS 18688/5 gives the signal box annunciators at Finsbury Park No 7 as: Goods, Alexandra Palace, East Finchley, Finchley Central, High Barnet, Edgware, Elstree South, Bushey Heath and Highgate - in other words no 'Stops Here' description; Drayton Park had the same selection of destinations, apart from that 'Goods' was replaced by 'Finsbury Park', presumably in this case referring to the Low Level. I suspect also that part of the rationale behind this change would have been alterations to depot access at Drayton Park. The very earliest scaled plan I have come across for Drayton Park in the Northern Heights era has no access from the NB main towards Finsbury Park Low Level, but it is drawn in later plans, dating from c.1941. FS 18688/5 surprisingly does not mention the descriptions that could have been set up at Moorgate Northern City Line signalbox for the NB destinations.
Returning to Camden Town and further south, from both Euston and Kennington the following NB descriptions could be set up according to FS 18688/5: Bushey Heath via Golders Green, Bushey Heath via Archway, Finchley Central, Archway, Elstree South via Golders Green, Elstree South via Archway, Golders Green, Colindale via Golders Green, Golders Green Depot, Edgware via Golders Green, Edgware via Archway. Euston had the same descriptions available with the addition of 'Stops Here' and 'Out[...]a[...]?g? Siding' - the original is virtually unreadable. Kennington offered the following possibilities: Bushey Heath via Golders Green (City), Bushey Heath via Highgate (City), Finchley Central (City), West End and Finchley Line, Archway (City), West End and Golders Green, Golders Green (City), High Barnet (City), Golders Green Depot (City), Elstree South via Golders Green (City), Colindale (City), Edgware via Golders Green (City), Edgware via Highgate (City), Elstree South via Highgate (City). Tooting was identical to Kennington. For the public, according to FS 16577/ the diagram reads 'Remainder of Morden - Edgware system will not be altered except that NB platform signs [showing first, second and third trains] will be corrected for new destinations: (Waterloo & Borough to Mornington Crescent NB): 'Golders Green', 'Colindale', 'Edgware', 'Elstree South', 'Archway', 'Finchley Central', High Barnet', 'Bushey Heath', 'via Golders Green', 'via Highgate', with the note that the signalman at Kennington must originate the full description of all NB trains. Morden to Oval NB would have had an abbreviated lightbox for first and second trains reading: 'City & Euston', City & Golders Green Line', 'City & Finchley Line', 'West End & Golders Green Line', 'West End & Finchley Line'.
That isn't the full story either! I have also had sight of a timetable planning document from 1937 (CS 15252C and CS 15252D, originally produced in February 1937 and amended in September 1938 and January 1939); this gives trains per hour per road at even spacing. This gives NCL: Drayton Park to Junction for Alexandra Palace 30tph, Alexandra Palace Line 20tph; Northern Extension: Archway to East Finchley 25tph, East Finchley to Finchley (Central) 30tph, Finchley (Central) to High Barnet 25tph, Finchley Central to Edgware 20tph. No mention of trains north of Edgware; this is an unusual omission, as figures are quoted for the entirety of the Central Line as we now know it, plus Denham - Greenford (when Greenford was planned to have a much larger signal box for turnbacks). Other planning documents exist as part of the 1935/40 New Works plan, but not as detailed. I hope that helps!
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 15:06:54 GMT
If you have a current line diagram to hand..
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 14, 2012 16:08:20 GMT
Eh?
I do have some current rail and substation gen for the Northern Heights, but I don't think that's quite what you mean.
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 16:53:34 GMT
Sorry, that was rather vague. I was responding to this:
Assuming that meant a line diagram. I wanted to know if you had a PDF or something, of a current Northern Line in-car diagram. I've probably read it wrong.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 14, 2012 17:25:21 GMT
We've got one above our bed, if that helps...
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Post by alfie on May 14, 2012 17:31:17 GMT
Unfortunately no, as I also have one above my bed.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 18:11:58 GMT
Something that I've been wondering about with the Northern Heights plan, the bit between Mill Hill East and Bushey Heath stations. Mill Hill East - Edgware would have been built on the formation of the old LNER branch to Edgware LNE: Edgware LNE was going to become the northern terminus on that branch for goods services. Beyond Edgware (UndergrounD) would purely have been tube services - there would have been surface stock detectors at Edgware station throat looking towards Mill Hill East. To be more accurate MHE-Edgware would have been conversion to tube standards (doubling, electrification, etc.) of the LNER (ex GNR; originally EH&L) line (as Finchley Central-MHE/HB), with a new connection at Edgware into Edgware LPTB station: the LNER line remained in use (at least for freight) until after the (LT) extension had been abandoned. For maps of how things were see nls.tileserver.com/ (smaller scale is just post WW1, larger scale ('one inch' mapping) post WW2) or www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/ (Historic OS 'Popular' is 1920s; 'New Popular' is late 1940s) - in both cases you will have to zoom navigate to place of interest.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on May 14, 2012 21:56:27 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 14, 2012 22:32:41 GMT
Mill Hill East - Edgware would have been built on the formation of the old LNER branch to Edgware LNE: Edgware LNE was going to become the northern terminus on that branch for goods services. Beyond Edgware (UndergrounD) would purely have been tube services - there would have been surface stock detectors at Edgware station throat looking towards Mill Hill East. To be more accurate MHE-Edgware would have been conversion to tube standards (doubling, electrification, etc.) of the LNER (ex GNR; originally EH&L) line (as Finchley Central-MHE/HB), with a new connection at Edgware into Edgware LPTB station: the LNER line remained in use (at least for freight) until after the (LT) extension had been abandoned. Please don't think that I'm trying to score points, I'm not: but I think that 'building on the formation' is a more representative rendition of the situation reflected in the civils plans. I have a full set; they are annotated and colour-coded according to what work had or would be undertaken by the LPTB or the LNER.
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Post by alfie on May 15, 2012 5:53:31 GMT
Nope, but looking at that, I wonder why they had the whole SSL network in green..?
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 15, 2012 7:01:55 GMT
Nope, but looking at that, I wonder why they had the whole SSL network in green..? Green was the colour of the entire SSl network between 1935 and 1949, presumably as a rather drastic solution to resolving the increasing compelxities of interworking. prevkious tyo that, the colours reflected the original ownership of the tracks, rather than the services they operated - so, for example, the fact that trains ran through HSK was not apparent from the map. The Circle was only given its own identity in 1949.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 7:39:25 GMT
I wonder why they had the whole SSL network in green..? When LT was formed, there were ideas of running through trains between Met and District. For example, Uxbridge-Harrow-Baker St-Aldgate-Earl's Court-Acton-Uxbridge. So it was decided to use one colour: presumably green because the District was now in charge.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 18:42:55 GMT
That is a very thorough reply MRFS!
I guess it's something that has to be looked at by looking at the Northern Heights as a whole rather than just one section, although doing that still does pose the original question as to why it seemed as if north of Edgware, the trains would be coming from the Mill Hill East direction only (the 1939 map seems to show it the other way around), moreso given that that side of the line would also have had the Alexandra Palace branch to have - rightly or wrongly, I'm thinking how at Earl's Court the District Line is split into three destinations: Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway; a fourth if you include Olympia. Looking at the service pattern indicated above, that seems a quite apt comparison (pre-Olympia withdrawal). It seems to me that the LNER would also have run services over parts of the line (Finsbury Park - Edgware?)
Obviously we can only speculate here, but, had the line been opened as planned, would Bushey Heath trains still come solely from the Highgate direction? It seems a bit weird that any people wanting stations between Edgware and Bushey Heath seem to be better off going on the Hampstead branch to Edgware and on from there! Also odd that Mr Forman says that Mill Hill East makes the tube more complicated for everyone... I think had this line been built, *that* would have been more complicated!
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on May 15, 2012 18:48:56 GMT
@ fairysdad
You said
"I'm thinking how at Earl's Court the District Line is split into three destinations: Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway; a fourth if you include Olympia".
Don't forget there was a fifth "Hounslow West". . And there were many "after peak" workings to Northfields when the District was stabled there
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 15, 2012 19:26:27 GMT
@ fairysdad You said "I'm thinking how at Earl's Court the District Line is split into three destinations: Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway; a fourth if you include Olympia". Don't forget there was a fifth "Hounslow West". . ...not to mention the South Harrow branch!
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 17, 2012 1:09:58 GMT
That is a very thorough reply MRFS! I guess it's something that has to be looked at by looking at the Northern Heights as a whole rather than just one section, although doing that still does pose the original question as to why it seemed as if north of Edgware, the trains would be coming from the Mill Hill East direction only (the 1939 map seems to show it the other way around), moreso given that that side of the line would also have had the Alexandra Palace branch to have It seems to me that the LNER would also have run services over parts of the line (Finsbury Park - Edgware?) I have in my possession a copy of the scale signalling diagram for Edgware, dated 30/10/39, the platforms were laid out as follows - Platform No 1: this was an extension of the old main line from Golders, it formed a bay, trains could either depart southwards to Golders from the bay via the old tracks or go into the traffic sidings (Roads No. 36 - 39 inclusive) which went up as far as the embankment to Edgware LNE.
- Platform No 3: this was the NB through it could be accessed by any of three ways:
- via the old main line from Golders
- via Mill Hill East on a line that oversailed the new main lines from Golders
- from Golders via the new main lines that went under the LNE track to Edgware LNE and the MHE - Aldenham NB Main
- Platforms 4 and 5 these were terminating bays in the middle of the station, formed of the new extensions to the main line from Golders.
- Platform 3 was accessible from
- the NB new line from Golders
- NB main from MHE
- Roads 34 and 35 which were the headshunts off the depot fan at the east side of the site
- Platform 4 was accessible from
- NB new line from Golders via crossover
- Roads 34 and 35
- Departures possible from both platforms to Golders via the new lines, Mill Hill East via crossovers, Roads 34 and 35 via the same crossovers as MHE with an extra one at the end.
- Platform 6 was the SB through, departures possible to
- Roads 34/35
- Mill Hill East
- Golders via new lines, going under the NB main from MHE and Edgware LNE line
- Platform 2 was the other side of Platform 1 - serving the NB main: theoretically allowing cross-platform interchange either side 2 to 1 for a SB Golders and below service.
It is worth commenting that the design for Edgware station was changed as the project progressed: there is a version published in 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' that is significantly different from the scale signalling plan and civils plan - this is the civils plan from 1944 for Edgware, which will hopefully aid your understanding. Click on the magnifying glass for a better zoom. Obviously we can only speculate here, but, had the line been opened as planned, would Bushey Heath trains still come solely from the Highgate direction? It seems a bit weird that any people wanting stations between Edgware and Bushey Heath seem to be better off going on the Hampstead branch to Edgware and on from there! Also odd that Mr Forman says that Mill Hill East makes the tube more complicated for everyone... I think had this line been built, *that* would have been more complicated! I've got a bit more that I can write, but I need to go and find a book, as I've just remembered something else... No, I don't: channeling Colin: 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' p.58 shows a planned service diagram from Modern Transport 9/4/38 with the Bushey Heath shuttle instead of through-running at Edgware even though according to the book the layout at that station had already been planned by this time to allow for it. What's interesting about the diagram is you could take a train from Moorgate via Finsbury Park to High Barnet without changing trains though presumably you would get the first one that came along and change at East Finchley or Finchley Central if you needed to get get a NB High Barnet train. However you could not get a direct train to Edgware or Bushey via Finsbury Park. Also, Finchley Central-Edgware, the Edgware-Bushey Heath shuttle and Highgate-Ally Pally are all shown as single services and presumably with lower frequencies. This would match the Green Belt/lower density of at least the first 2 sections of line - there was apparently a lot of concern at the time not to overdevelop Mill Hill and north of Brockley Hill,. and Alley Pally was never going to have a big demand. from Northern Heights Today in RIPaS.
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Post by Geoffram on May 21, 2012 19:17:47 GMT
Small point arising from mrfs42's plan of the services: why would they choose a service pattern of 7/14 trains per hour? As opposed to 7/8 and 15? Wouldn't that lead to a non-repeating hourly pattern? Maybe it wasn't a problem: the LNER services they were replacing were very arbitrary.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 27, 2012 13:44:21 GMT
Small point arising from mrfs42's plan of the services: why would they choose a service pattern of 7/14 trains per hour? As opposed to 7/8 and 15? Wouldn't that lead to a non-repeating hourly pattern? Maybe it wasn't a problem: the LNER services they were replacing were very arbitrary. 7 is to 14 what 8 is to 16; but remember 8 and 6 never mix. In terms of making a 'good' timetable the evidence points to the frequency of the outer ends setting the tempo for the 'spine' - remember that in the 1935 (or so) period stand time was rarely scheduled on the deep level tubes - if it was it would be a galley note. Moving from the premise that the distances between Bushey Heath, Elstree South, Brockley Hill and Edgware suited a 7 tph service spacing; (or conversely that the busiest section set the frequency in multiples of the limbs meaning:) or that the maximum frequency that could be dealt with on the busiest section of the Northern Heights (both Finsbury Parks to Moorgate on the Northern City) was 28tph [1] which is of course a multiple of 7. If you're referring to 'clockface' departures they were quite rare on the UndergrounD or Combine, but I have got an Easter 1934 notice for Met Sections 1, 2 and 3 which has a clockface pattern once the positioning moves were complete at the start of the day. [1] the tt planning documents I have seen were written before the resignalling of the Northern City, but looking at the NC after resignalling 28/29tph would really be pushing it a bit.
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