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Post by A60stock on May 9, 2012 0:10:23 GMT
a question about the refurbs of these as well as the other LU stock
how was it decided about what order to refurbish the stocks? i notice the a stock being the oldest for refurbishment was done after the c stock and 1972/67 stock when it was already much older!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 7:18:38 GMT
I think it was because they were wondering wether they would refurbish them at all down to their age, i'd imagine they were in much better condition than the C stock too.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 9:11:25 GMT
If you find some pictures of A stock in the early 90s you'll understand why they were done. The 80s-90s saw two major peices of work carried out to the A stock. The first 1985-86 was their conversion to one person operation (OPO). This did not appear extensive but was. For a start the A stock was not handed and could couple at any end. The OPO programme not only removed this feature but created 88 non-operational cab ends. The OPO programme replaced guards, the guards panels, provided high intensity headlights, missile proof windscreens and new wipers. These were only provided (initially) to the enabled cabs. The expected date of withdrawal for the A stock was about 1999-2000 but in about 1992 it was decided that they were in good enough condition to last another 10-15 years - a good decision in my opinion.
The refurb nearly didn't happen due to lack of funds. 5132-6132 initially were used for a trial refurb (there are pictures about). On refurb, all remaining non-OPO cabs received a new wiper and high intensity headlights.
It is interesting to consider that if the Met had not been part of the Circle Line, but been a stand alone fleet, would it have been converted to OPO? Perhaps not?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on May 9, 2012 9:25:45 GMT
Why did they become "handed", if they were not so initially? At what cost?
What was the point, what did it save and what did it prove? Over the years, has the cost and inflexibility and inconvenience made it worthwhile? And was their becoming "handed" another factor in trying to obliterate reference to the Watford North Curve as many units would end up facing the wrong way?
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Post by andypurk on May 9, 2012 10:04:13 GMT
Why did they become "handed", if they were not so initially? At what cost? What was the point, what did it save and what did it prove? Over the years, has the cost and inflexibility and inconvenience made it worthwhile? And was their becoming "handed" another factor in trying to obliterate reference to the Watford North Curve as many units would end up facing the wrong way? Surely the money saved on not converting those 88 cabs for OPO operation will have out-weighed any costs due to having trains the wrong way round when swapping units about.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 10:09:40 GMT
I don't know the technical details of the OPO conversion but I suspect that the control system required the use of some of the studs on the wedgelock couplers. The couplers were only reversable because the studs were duplicated either side of the coupler. It would not have been cost effective to replace all the couplers. The key point here was that there were a vast amount of spare units available which is why 88 A60/62 units were only converted to single end cars and the rest effectively became UNDMs. Of the 58 units delievered 1961-63, 56 were converted to OPO with cars 5034, 5009, 6008, 6009, 6116, 5036, 5037, 6036, 6037 being made spare. The remains of units 5028, 5170 and 5116 were scrapped. The Watford north curve is very much in use and even with the problems it casues - it wasn't worth the hassle to remove it.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on May 9, 2012 10:26:25 GMT
metman said "The Watford north curve is very much in use and even with the problems it casues - it wasn't worth the hassle to remove it."
What a pity. It shouldn't cause problems or be thought of as a "problem". It should be thought of as an asset, not as a problem.
metman, Do you think this is a case of 'blinkered think" by 'the suits'? I think that looking into the future, this could be seen as a wonderful asset for new traffic patterns that will be needed before mid-century.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 10:32:20 GMT
I'm not sure. The S stock is handed but as it does not sub-divide it's not really an issue, unless a push is required in which can adaptors are carried.
The North curve could provide new journey options but one has to ask what is the traffic demand for travel between Watford (Junction?) and Ricky/Amersham/Chesham?
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on May 9, 2012 10:50:11 GMT
metman asks "The North curve could provide new journey options but one has to ask what is the traffic demand for travel between Watford (Junction?) and Ricky/Amersham/Chesham?"
I think the question should be not "what is.....", but "what will be...." in 20/30 years from now.
Never forget the WLL was closed to pax once through lack of pax demand, and even in the 60s we were told that it would never re-open as it had been tried and failed. (50+ years earlier!!)
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 11:32:40 GMT
We will see I guess.....
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 12:26:45 GMT
On refurb am I right to say that the Guard's panels were completly removed, I think the panels were still there, but paneled over.
The luggage racks have been removed on withdrawn A stock and being sold by the LT Museum. It would been nice to had a pair of guard's panels. However, I was thinking about getting an A stock deadman and complete control desk from Booths as well as a set of the A stock OPO headlight units.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 14:09:59 GMT
I'd love a deadman. Let me know what they are asking. Re the guards panels not sure. Perhaps someone at Booths can confirm
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Post by superteacher on May 9, 2012 19:16:29 GMT
On refurb am I right to say that the Guard's panels were completly removed, I think the panels were still there, but paneled over. The luggage racks have been removed on withdrawn A stock and being sold by the LT Museum. It would been nice to had a pair of guard's panels. However, I was thinking about getting an A stock deadman and complete control desk from Booths as well as a set of the A stock OPO headlight units. I'm pretty sure that the guards panels remained after refurbishment, but covered over as you say. I think that their conversison to OPO involved fitting door control buttons in the driver's cab, which were wired to the guard's panel, which then effected the door opening and closing. If you sit in the rear car of an A stock, you can still here clunking behind the panel where the guard's controls are.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 19:39:36 GMT
ATO? ;D
Know what you mean though. You can hear the 'Tuka tuka tuka tuka tuka tuka' when the doors operate.
'If' a preserved unit was returned to near originial condition the guard could be reinstated. You could keep the OPO controls in the cabs still. Anyway that's another story......
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Post by superteacher on May 9, 2012 19:58:15 GMT
ATO? ;D Know what you mean though. You can hear the 'Tuka tuka tuka tuka tuka tuka' when the doors operate. 'If' a preserved unit was returned to near originial condition the guard could be reinstated. You could keep the OPO controls in the cabs still. Anyway that's another story...... Oops! Post duly corrected to OPO! ;D I suspect it wouldn't be a major job to reinstate the guard's panel. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do it in time for the last official A stock run on the Met? Won't happen, but we can dream eh!
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Post by crusty54 on May 9, 2012 20:07:07 GMT
Window replacement made a big improvement. They used to rattle all the way.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 9, 2012 20:35:22 GMT
Yes the old tilting quarter lights, they did used to rattle a lot. The new hopper windows are lovely, very smooth. I nearly always open them, especially in the Finchley Road tunnels -you can hear the motors, PCM and line breakers working away. Soon, it won't be possible to open the windows on a Metropolitan Line train.
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Post by t697 on May 10, 2012 19:30:22 GMT
When the Refurb programmes started there was percieved to be a greater immediate need on the deep level Tube lines with older trains, following up on the fire safety issues after the King's Cross fire. All the refurbs used better fire safety performing materials. When it came to A stock, I recall there was a lot of optioneering including life extension with major mods such as new brake control gear with wheelslip control to minimise wheel flats. In the end, the refurb you see today was selected. Regarding Guards Panels, they were removed at Refurb and the barrel switch replaced by a set of relays. Saved the OPO driver having to remember to operate both the cab control switch and the ex-guards switch at every terminus. Also replaced near life expired switch.
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metman
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Post by metman on May 10, 2012 19:46:33 GMT
So all the noises are the relays working. Thank you for clearing that up.
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