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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2012 11:58:05 GMT
Surely if all 315's are withdrawn when crossrail comes, Great Anglia or whoever is running it by then, will be lacking trains for the West Anglia Metro routes to destinations such as Cheshunt, Hertford East, Enfield Town and Chingford, as well as the Gidea Park terminators. Also, 315's operate on early morning and late evening diagrams to/from Southend Victoria and Southminster, some of which will use the Crossrail stations, such as Ilford, Chadwell Heath, Harold Wood etc etc. So they would have to keep some 315's to cover for these services.
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Post by andypurk on Jul 4, 2012 21:25:04 GMT
Surely if all 315's are withdrawn when crossrail comes, Great Anglia or whoever is running it by then, will be lacking trains for the West Anglia Metro routes to destinations such as Cheshunt, Hertford East, Enfield Town and Chingford, as well as the Gidea Park terminators. Maybe, but some of the 315 diagrams have already been replaced by class 317s on the West Anglia Routes, following the introduction of the class 379 units. Why? Surely they could just be operated by the class 321 fleet and that those times of day they don't need to use the slow lines, but can stay on the fast lines whilst still calling. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 7:55:38 GMT
As a Greater Anglia commuter the potential loss of 2 running lines to TfL/Crossrail between Stratford and Shenfield is a concern. At the moment the "Electric Lines" can be used at the drop of a hat if there's a problem with the fast lines. If the 4 tracks are managed seperately then it's going to take longer than it does now to get authority to divert trains. And that's assuming connection and crossovers will remain in place.
If Greater Anglia can't use Crossrail lines because of the increased capacity (or because Crossrail management want to keep their line running at all costs) then there's potential for chaos for longer-distance commuters.
Likewise with the current Metro stock. At the moment the 315s can provide emergency cover for the GA services to Upminster/Southend Vic/Southminster. They have even been known to venture to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in times of desperate need. I can't see Crossrail giving road knowledge to their drivers or paying for a safety case so that the Class 345s could be utilized in the same way.
Of course, this could be me just assuming that the DfT and TfL haven't done their homework. In the case of the latter I would be very suprised if they haven't, but I have very little faith in the former. Even after the Olympic budget incident they still forgot to factor VAT into the costings for HS2. Bless em.
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Post by andypurk on Jul 8, 2012 11:21:19 GMT
As a Greater Anglia commuter the potential loss of 2 running lines to TfL/Crossrail between Stratford and Shenfield is a concern. At the moment the "Electric Lines" can be used at the drop of a hat if there's a problem with the fast lines. If the 4 tracks are managed seperately then it's going to take longer than it does now to get authority to divert trains. And that's assuming connection and crossovers will remain in place. If Greater Anglia can't use Crossrail lines because of the increased capacity (or because Crossrail management want to keep their line running at all costs) then there's potential for chaos for longer-distance commuters. Likewise with the current Metro stock. At the moment the 315s can provide emergency cover for the GA services to Upminster/Southend Vic/Southminster. They have even been known to venture to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in times of desperate need. I can't see Crossrail giving road knowledge to their drivers or paying for a safety case so that the Class 345s could be utilized in the same way. I've seen no plans for the crossovers etc. to be removed between the electric lines and the main lines. The tracks will still all 'belong' to Network Rail and rearranging of services during times of disruption will be little different to other lines where more than one operator runs. For example when Virgin, London Midland and Southern have to use two tracks rather than the normal four on the WCML, the TOCs have to come to an arrangement and there are contingency plans in place. The class 315s can get to Southend because they are diagrammed to get there in the early morning, so staff are already trained. But for running of the class 345s beyond Shenfield, would it really be worth paying to train staff for the rare occasions when it might be needed. If the line beyond Shenfield is available, then there will be other GA trains available to run the service, but maybe with a change at Shenfield. On the WCML we used to have occasional use of the class 313s (or even DMUs during weekend engineering) to/from Bletchley when there were problems. Since Silverlink ended, and the class 313s went to LO, I havn't noticed any particular change in the recovery from problems. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2012 14:04:19 GMT
My feeling on the 315's is that if the 3rd seat is removed throughout the carriage (or as a minimum in 2 of the 3 partitions) then considerably more standing room would be available during peak hours and passengers might be persuaded/educated to move inside. The down side is a loss of seats in the off peaks. Could a 5th unit be added to ease congestion? A fifth carriage could not be added without major alterations to the existing platforms, bridges, cuttings etc. Most of the platforms are only long enough to take 8 cars, and are constrained on one side, or both in the case of Maryland, by road bridges, which would have to be widened to take the lengthened platforms. |
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Post by Rich32 on Jul 8, 2012 14:43:31 GMT
My feeling on the 315's is that if the 3rd seat is removed throughout the carriage (or as a minimum in 2 of the 3 partitions) then considerably more standing room would be available during peak hours and passengers might be persuaded/educated to move inside. The down side is a loss of seats in the off peaks. Could a 5th unit be added to ease congestion? A fifth carriage could not be added without major alterations to the existing platforms, bridges, cuttings etc. Most of the platforms are only long enough to take 8 cars, and are constrained on one side, or both in the case of Maryland, by road bridges, which would have to be widened to take the lengthened platforms. That's not quite true as Shenfield Metro platforms can all take 9 cars, as the previous Class 306 units were 3-car units, often made up to 9. Although the practicalities of having a mixed 4/5-car fleet would be interesting, most, if not all trains on Metro services are 8-car anyway, so maybe a mixed fleet wouldn't be entirely unfeasible. I suppose it all depends on the length of the GW platforms and whether they could take 9x20m cars. EDIT for punctuation! |
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Post by peterc on Jul 8, 2012 16:51:46 GMT
IIRC the 306 vehicles were rather shorter than the 315s making 8 315s and 9 306s a similar length.
All the time that I commuted on 306s in the 60s and early 70s the only regular formation of less than 9 coaches that I can recall was a three coach shuttle from Shenfield to Chelmsford
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Post by fleetline on Jul 16, 2012 15:58:21 GMT
As a Greater Anglia commuter the potential loss of 2 running lines to TfL/Crossrail between Stratford and Shenfield is a concern. At the moment the "Electric Lines" can be used at the drop of a hat if there's a problem with the fast lines. If the 4 tracks are managed seperately then it's going to take longer than it does now to get authority to divert trains. And that's assuming connection and crossovers will remain in place. If Greater Anglia can't use Crossrail lines because of the increased capacity (or because Crossrail management want to keep their line running at all costs) then there's potential for chaos for longer-distance commuters. Likewise with the current Metro stock. At the moment the 315s can provide emergency cover for the GA services to Upminster/Southend Vic/Southminster. They have even been known to venture to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in times of desperate need. I can't see Crossrail giving road knowledge to their drivers or paying for a safety case so that the Class 345s could be utilized in the same way. Of course, this could be me just assuming that the DfT and TfL haven't done their homework. In the case of the latter I would be very suprised if they haven't, but I have very little faith in the former. Even after the Olympic budget incident they still forgot to factor VAT into the costings for HS2. Bless em. Actually TfL have done their homework but you've not. Neither TfL nor Grater Anglia ever decides what lines they run through. It's th ORR who gives out train paths and it's Netork Rail that sorts out where they (ie which lines). Authority to use tracks is nothing to do with a train operator like GA or TfL/Crossrail or even LO. Depending on the situation, Crossrail can be told your not running trains past x and they have to comply. In the case of problems on the lows it's Netok Rail staff in the signal box who decided what lines the trains use and they look at other issues not which company is running it. Simply going over to TfL control will change little operationally, in fact Crossrail will help reduce the problems as it will bring in trains that out pace the fast line services my some measure. only a 91 at full speed will out do a new train. The removal of the 315 fleet shouldnt have too much affect on the GA franchise as the currently off lease 317's could come back. Add in the fact that the 379's allowed longer trains while freeing up 317's that are now stored says a lot. Simple fact is GA won't miss the 315's, it'll just use it's fleet differently than today. |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 17, 2012 0:56:01 GMT
As a Greater Anglia commuter the potential loss of 2 running lines to TfL/Crossrail between Stratford and Shenfield is a concern. At the moment the "Electric Lines" can be used at the drop of a hat if there's a problem with the fast lines. If the 4 tracks are managed seperately then it's going to take longer than it does now to get authority to divert trains. And that's assuming connection and crossovers will remain in place. If Greater Anglia can't use Crossrail lines because of the increased capacity (or because Crossrail management want to keep their line running at all costs) then there's potential for chaos for longer-distance commuters. Likewise with the current Metro stock. At the moment the 315s can provide emergency cover for the GA services to Upminster/Southend Vic/Southminster. They have even been known to venture to Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester in times of desperate need. I can't see Crossrail giving road knowledge to their drivers or paying for a safety case so that the Class 345s could be utilized in the same way. Of course, this could be me just assuming that the DfT and TfL haven't done their homework. In the case of the latter I would be very suprised if they haven't, but I have very little faith in the former. Even after the Olympic budget incident they still forgot to factor VAT into the costings for HS2. Bless em. Actually TfL have done their homework but you've not. Neither TfL nor Grater Anglia ever decides what lines they run through. It's th ORR who gives out train paths and it's Netork Rail that sorts out where they (ie which lines). Authority to use tracks is nothing to do with a train operator like GA or TfL/Crossrail or even LO. Depending on the situation, Crossrail can be told your not running trains past x and they have to comply. In the case of Crossrail, it is not quite as simple as that, as part of the agreement for funding Crossrail involved the preferential running rights of Crossrail on both the Electric lines east of London and the Relief lines west of London. Such decisions are rarely just down to Network Rail, as the TOCs have to be involved to make sure the planned alterations still have staff and trains available to run them. Hence the introduction of the joint control room at Waterloo, involving both South West Trains and Network Rail staff. Such changes being likely to spread. Indeed. |
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Post by fleetline on Jul 17, 2012 8:49:13 GMT
In the case of Crossrail, it is not quite as simple as that, as part of the agreement for funding Crossrail involved the preferential running rights of Crossrail on both the Electric lines east of London and the Relief lines west of London. Such decisions are rarely just down to Network Rail, as the TOCs have to be involved to make sure the planned alterations still have staff and trains available to run them. Hence the introduction of the joint control room at Waterloo, involving both South West Trains and Network Rail staff. Such changes being likely to spread. I'm sorry but have you ever been in a Network Rail signal box? Because from you state it seems you haven't. I hav and I continue to work in one. The TOC has nothing to do with the selection of what tracks you use during disprution. Running rights are simple permission to run track not you can only use x tracks. We have running rights but when things go wrong you share the tracks for the greater good of the travelling public unless you can so me a document where TfL have agreed not to ever use any other tracks unlike the rest if the entire railway and how it works. Actually joint controls are going out the window. Your example isn't a joint control, it's an intragrated control. The different is in an intragrated control Network Rail takes the lead and decides what happens and tells the TOC what it can and can't do. Even then an intragrated control does not decide what tracks to use, that's a signallers job. And the signallers work around a problem. I work in one of a few joint controls we have in he country (believe there's a total of three with two in London). As for your example of WICC (Waterloo Intragrated Control Center) just because there is a deep alliance it hasn't changed anything. The signallers still decide how to use the tracks based on the Network Rail track plan (based on paths) especially during disruption and the control staff (both SWT nd NR) work out together an overall plan with NR staff directing the repairs and SWT staff re-arranging the train service. |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 20, 2012 21:59:29 GMT
In the case of Crossrail, it is not quite as simple as that, as part of the agreement for funding Crossrail involved the preferential running rights of Crossrail on both the Electric lines east of London and the Relief lines west of London. Such decisions are rarely just down to Network Rail, as the TOCs have to be involved to make sure the planned alterations still have staff and trains available to run them. Hence the introduction of the joint control room at Waterloo, involving both South West Trains and Network Rail staff. Such changes being likely to spread. I'm sorry but have you ever been in a Network Rail signal box? Because from you state it seems you haven't. I hav and I continue to work in one. The TOC has nothing to do with the selection of what tracks you use during disprution. And when there is disruption, who runs on what track isn't the point. The point is that Control (in what ever form) decide which trains will run and to what timetable. So when there is disruption, the signallers will have a plan to run to. This is seen regularly on several routes. For example, when there are problems on the West Coast mainline, both Virgin and London Midland thin out their services and run to an agreed contingency timetable. The point I was making is that the Crossrail operator will normally have the Electric lines to themselves. In the case of disruption, I doubt that they will lose many of their paths not to say that they will never use the Mainlines. I also doubt that any contingency plan for the Great Eastern mainline won't include giving priority to Crossrail trains, at least to the majority which will run through to the lines beyond Paddington. They will almost certainly be given priority over through trains to Southend, for example. |
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Post by peterc on Jul 21, 2012 21:14:15 GMT
This makes me wonder about what facilities there are to reverse trains from the east at Shenfield. Its a long time since I used the station and I am not sure how good my memory is.
Can trains be reversed in the two mainline platforms (2 & 3?)? All the reversals that I can recall are either in platform 1 or from the slow lines which will be the Crossrail platforms.
I hope I have the numbering the right way round.
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Post by andypurk on Jul 22, 2012 19:53:09 GMT
This makes me wonder about what facilities there are to reverse trains from the east at Shenfield. Its a long time since I used the station and I am not sure how good my memory is. Can trains be reversed in the two mainline platforms (2 & 3?)? All the reversals that I can recall are either in platform 1 or from the slow lines which will be the Crossrail platforms. I hope I have the numbering the right way round. All platforms can reverse trains to/from the Chelmsford direction (not totally sure if platform 3 is signalled for arrivals from Chelmsford), but the Southend branch is only available for reversals from platform 1, 4 and 5, unless the trains go south of the station to reverse on the mainline. |
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Post by fleetline on Jul 25, 2012 9:47:57 GMT
And when there is disruption, who runs on what track isn't the point. The point is that Control (in what ever form) decide which trains will run and to what timetable. So when there is disruption, the signallers will have a plan to run to. This is seen regularly on several routes. For example, when there are problems on the West Coast mainline, both Virgin and London Midland thin out their services and run to an agreed contingency timetable. Yes we in control decide what trains to run but what you find is Network Rail states which lines and tracks will be open and that said disruption plan is now in effect. Signallers will put trains on to the tracks not a control. When I say control I am referring to the TOC or in this case Crossrail operator. I don't think you actually understand or realise that it's Network Rail who are in control. The TOC simply tries to run as many trains as possible, but it's Network Rail that calls the shots. I can't make that any clearer as I'm actually talking from facts here as I work in a joint TOC/NR signal box. Network Rail and it's signallers can refuse to allow a train to run in service despite what the TOC wants. Yes we have plans for it but the situation at hand will be a variant on the plan and that what makes being in controls uh a great experience. The plan for problems won't yet have been written but the overall plan is to balance needs another all operators when track capacity has been reduced. This could mean allowing Crossrail to provide the only service between London and Shenfield or could mean Crossrail terminating somewhere else depending on the situation. Whether you doubt it or not, there will be some priority to Crossrail passengers as that's Network Rail's job. It has to balance the situation to give everyone a chance to get home, unless all lines are blocked then it's replacement transport. |
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Post by revupminster on Jul 25, 2012 12:00:58 GMT
Surely the service will be Crossrail to Shenfield replacing the Liverpool St - Shenfields and freeing track paths beyond Stratford into London. Liverpool St -Southend will share the same tracks as they often do now leaving the fast lines for Intercity Trains. With extra capacity from Liverpool ST I wonder if the Stanstead Express could be routed via Stratford and Tottenham Hale in the near future.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2012 12:57:45 GMT
Surely the service will be Crossrail to Shenfield replacing the Liverpool St - Shenfields and freeing track paths beyond Stratford into London. Liverpool St -Southend will share the same tracks as they often do now leaving the fast lines for Intercity Trains. With extra capacity from Liverpool ST I wonder if the Stanstead Express could be routed via Stratford and Tottenham Hale in the near future. Sorry, are you (incorrectly) implying that Southend Victoria services normally run via the electrics? There are only a handful of trains to/from Southend Victoria that are scheduled to run via the electrics, most of which run as the first trains in the morning, or last trains at night. On the Sunday services, they use whatever tracks are available, i.e. sometimes the electrics, sometimes the fasts. |
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Post by DrOne on Aug 7, 2012 16:22:14 GMT
Hmm that wasn't the impression I had. I also was under the impression the Southend Victoria services use the slow lines off-peak and the fast lines in the peaks when the metro lines are full with the Shenfield/Gidea Park trains.
To answer revupminster's point: Crossrail will surface/dive west of Stratford and will call at the slow platforms as the Shenfield services do now so there won't be as much relief to the fast lines around Stratford as one might hope. The other thing getting in the way of routing the Stansted trains to Liverpool St via Stratford is the conflicts it would cause with fast services and freight routes using the GE lines. It would need some nifty trackwork to carry the Stansted trains over the fast tracks and connect to the slow tracks beyond the crossrail portal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 20:37:44 GMT
Hmm that wasn't the impression I had. I also was under the impression the Southend Victoria services use the slow lines off-peak and the fast lines in the peaks when the metro lines are full with the Shenfield/Gidea Park trains. To answer revupminster's point: Crossrail will surface/dive west of Stratford and will call at the slow platforms as the Shenfield services do now so there won't be as much relief to the fast lines around Stratford as one might hope. The other thing getting in the way of routing the Stansted trains to Liverpool St via Stratford is the conflicts it would cause with fast services and freight routes using the GE lines. It would need some nifty trackwork to carry the Stansted trains over the fast tracks and connect to the slow tracks beyond the crossrail portal. And there is still the issue of how will freight cope with being squeezed on to the fast lines. Most freight at the moment tends to cross over to/from the electrics at Shenfield, and then cross back to the fast lines around Forest Gate for the final approach to Stratford Yard. Would the frequency of crossrail be sufficient so as to meet demand in the central section once combined with Abbey Wood trains, but still not so frequent as to render use of the electrics by freight trains impractical? |
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Post by revupminster on Aug 7, 2012 22:22:23 GMT
As Crossrail will replace the Shenfield stoppers there will be no extra trains at Stratford. The extra capacity will be beyond the portals to Liverpool St which could be used for a service to Stanstead coming over to the fast lines to reach the existing platforms that provide the present Stratford Stanstead service. You could have a similar services as are provided by different operators to Gatwick. I would like a Heathrow- Stanstead service via Stratford but it would be a nightmare to timetable through Stratford fast lines.
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Post by DrOne on Aug 10, 2012 10:24:08 GMT
revupminster - at present the Stansted trains via Stratford stop there and generally don't impact upon the fast lines. If they were extended to Liverpool St (as desirable as that may be) they would be crossing the fast lines on the flat. As we said above this would essentially place 2 junctions on the fast lines in close proximity - one between the fast lines and the lea valley and the other between the fast lines and the north london line.
As a side, does anyone know which/how many trains join the fast lines from the Hackney Downs route at Bethnal Green junction?
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Post by revupminster on Aug 10, 2012 14:38:13 GMT
Should be four trains an hour.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2012 16:20:02 GMT
As a side, does anyone know which/how many trains join the fast lines from the Hackney Downs route at Bethnal Green junction? None are scheduled in the current timetable as far as I am aware. As far as I'm aware, all trains are scheduled to run through Bethnal Green platforms, unless diverting via Stratford of course. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2012 22:50:40 GMT
As a side, does anyone know which/how many trains join the fast lines from the Hackney Downs route at Bethnal Green junction? None are scheduled in the current timetable as far as I am aware. As far as I'm aware, all trains are scheduled to run through Bethnal Green platforms, unless diverting via Stratford of course. Not sure if it's still the case but after 2300 there used to be one or two trains that ran on the Mains and switched to the Suburbans bypassing Bethnal Green. I remember sitting on a Chingford train and running parallel to a WAML train (may have been a Stansted) from Bethnal Green to Hackney Downs one night a few years back. |
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Post by DrOne on Aug 11, 2012 23:42:03 GMT
Thanks for those answers. That section (Hackney Downs-Liverpool St) is the slowest for most of the services. Can anything be done to improve speeds?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 7:32:29 GMT
Thanks for those answers. That section (Hackney Downs-Liverpool St) is the slowest for most of the services. Can anything be done to improve speeds? The problem with line speeds is not something that can easily be resolved without major engineering works to ease the sharpness of the curve just beyond Bethnal Green, as that is a limiting factor. Not sure if there are others. |
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