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Post by Deep Level on Apr 7, 2012 20:30:39 GMT
Does the walk-through carriages of the S Stock mean the end of Middle Cabs on trains?
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Post by rsdworker on Apr 7, 2012 20:36:43 GMT
Does the walk-through carriages of the S Stock mean the end of Middle Cabs on trains? correct - the S8/S7 has 8/7 carriages with walk through |
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Post by charleyfarley on Apr 7, 2012 20:37:32 GMT
Is there a need for middle cabs now that the custom of splitting trains according to time of day is long gone as are LUL's three shuttle services?
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Post by alfie on Apr 7, 2012 20:47:13 GMT
Three? I know only of Chesham being half length..I think Woodford-Hainault used to be shortened trains aswell..what's the other one? Olympia probably. There is no need for Middle Cabs unless you are an enthuuuuusiast who wants to run the Chesham Shuttle again.
Evo Stock will be articulated as well (boo, no seats at all), but until then still the possibility of 3rd car cabs on the Central Line..
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Apr 7, 2012 20:51:05 GMT
Aldwych??
Ongar??
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Post by Deep Level on Apr 7, 2012 21:12:01 GMT
Is there a need for middle cabs now that the custom of splitting trains according to time of day is long gone as are LUL's three shuttle services? Well there isn't any need for them anywhere but they just seem to happen, like the train on the right here. My question basically was will they stop doing this now thanks to walk-through carriages? |
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Post by alfie on Apr 7, 2012 21:47:20 GMT
Ah yes of course  |
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Post by andypurk on Apr 7, 2012 21:52:13 GMT
Three? I know only of Chesham being half length..I think Woodford-Hainault used to be shortened trains aswell..what's the other one? Olympia probably. There is no need for Middle Cabs unless you are an enthuuuuusiast who wants to run the Chesham Shuttle again. The Mill Hill East branch is now a shuttle for most of the day, using a full length train though. And in the 1972 stock on the Bakerloo plus 1973 stock on the Piccadilly. So it will be a while before the end of center cabs. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 1:26:49 GMT
Is there a need for middle cabs now that the custom of splitting trains according to time of day is long gone as are LUL's three shuttle services? Given that the first UNDMs appeared in 1949, I wonder why the Victoria Line had all middle cabs and more so the Jubilee Line's 1983 MKI and MKII stocks? |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 8, 2012 6:52:19 GMT
Maintenance. At that time it was considered more sensible to be able to have 'half-trains' so that if there was a fault in one half, you could couple it to any other half, so not losing whole trains from service.
That perception is different now, for better or worse..... but reliablility has improved considerably with the advent of electronics.
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Post by charleyfarley on Apr 8, 2012 9:39:15 GMT
Is the 72TS the only LUL stock that was ordered "in a hurry" hence its similarity to the 67TS? Could this be the next Bakerloo Line stock  |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 8, 2012 10:04:42 GMT
I'm not sure thats strictly the only reason? Whilst uncoupling was dead on the deep level lines by the time the Vic's stock was ordered, it might be worth speculating whether the 4+4 design was influenced atall by previous ideas on running the Northern City branch, and the Aldwych shuttle. Not to mention Hainault-Woodford, though perhaps not the primary concern. You save on designing an extra type of car (UNDM), yet any extra expense of ordering only DM's leads to extra vital equipment being available, should it be acceptable to create 'middle DMs'.
The 83ts is an interesting one simply because of the massive downturn in traffic being experienced at the time. One wonders whether there was an idea that uncoupling might, at some point, become necessary to reintroduce.
Charley; theres an arguement to be made for the 1962ts. If a couple more years had been available perhaps we'd have seen something based on the 1960ts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 13:37:40 GMT
I would assume it's gone way past the point of ever reintroducing half trains and the general consensus seems to be that middle cabs take up valuable standing space on trains. They aren't even needed for shunting nowadays with the introduction of shunt panels and semi permanently coupled sets (Victoria line) so I think it's safe to say that once the 72/73TS goes (whichever is last) middle cabs will also go with them.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 8, 2012 13:55:01 GMT
An extra double cab unit was ordered on 73 stock. This was the maintenance spare and could replace a unit in any train.
Having now got the ability to lift a whole train there is no reason to lose passenger space with extra cabs.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 8, 2012 13:59:11 GMT
I think it's safe to say that once the 72/73TS goes (whichever is last) middle cabs will also go with them. I don't - although I can only ever recall seeing one, middle cabs turn up occasionally on the 1992 stock because (deliberately) there is a small excess of cab v non-cab units. If the W&C stock is automated and its existing stock added to the Central fleet they would become slightly more common. The advantage of middle cabs is that any unit (e.g half train) can couple to any other, at either end. UNDMs worked on the 1972 stock where there were two types of unit, one of which (the four-car) was both double ended and ambidextrous and could therefore couple to an UNDM whichever way round it was. With single-ended units, especially on a line with no turning facilities, you cannot make one good train out of two duds if the remaining half trains are both facing the same way! Of course the downside of middle cabs is greater complexity and less passenger space. Space is less of a problem if the cab is smaller (like the Tyneside Metro half-cabs) or available to passengers when not in use (DLR) |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 8, 2012 14:12:10 GMT
I agree that the 1992 will be the last trains with middle cabs.
The Victoria lines 1967 stock was ordered with 4+4 so testing could be carried out on the Woodford-Hainault line.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 11:53:45 GMT
I think it's safe to say that once the 72/73TS goes (whichever is last) middle cabs will also go with them. I don't - although I can only ever recall seeing one, middle cabs turn up occasionally on the 1992 stock because (deliberately) there is a small excess of cab v non-cab units. If the W&C stock is automated and its existing stock added to the Central fleet they would become slightly more common. Ah Yes! I was forgetting about the 1992TS |
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Post by t697 on Apr 9, 2012 16:18:59 GMT
Given that the first UNDMs appeared in 1949, I wonder why the Victoria Line had all middle cabs and more so the Jubilee Line's 1983 MKI and MKII stocks? JL 1983TS was originally just 15 trains to top up LU's total train holding at the time. They were 3 car double enders to maximise availability in making up 6 car trains. The second batch (hence Mk2s), were just another 16 1/2 trains to make the full pre-JLE Jubilee line fleet when traffic increased in the later 1980s with Fares Fair and a general economic boom. With just 16 1/2 trains to build in a hurry, 14 months from order to first train, there wasn't time to modify the design to give an UNDM car. A reminder of what a waste middle cabs are for the passengers. Those trains were so slow at busy platforms with their single doorways and huge wasted space in the middle of the trains and two lost doorways in the middle. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 9, 2012 18:02:54 GMT
There was a plan to increase each 3 car set into 6 car trains for the JLE I believe by ordering 3 extra cars, which I guess would have been 2 UNDMs and 1 trailer. I agree, a terrible waste of space.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 19:36:57 GMT
Given that the first UNDMs appeared in 1949, I wonder why the Victoria Line had all middle cabs and more so the Jubilee Line's 1983 MKI and MKII stocks? JL 1983TS was originally just 15 trains to top up LU's total train holding at the time. They were 3 car double enders to maximise availability in making up 6 car trains. The second batch (hence Mk2s), were just another 16 1/2 trains to make the full pre-JLE Jubilee line fleet when traffic increased in the later 1980s with Fares Fair and a general economic boom. With just 16 1/2 trains to build in a hurry, 14 months from order to first train, there wasn't time to modify the design to give an UNDM car. A reminder of what a waste middle cabs are for the passengers. Those trains were so slow at busy platforms with their single doorways and huge wasted space in the middle of the trains and two lost doorways in the middle. Thank you for the explanation. I thought when the 1972 MKIs were withdrawn from the Northern Line it would been beneficial if the UNDMs could been sent over to the Victoria Line to reduce the lost space caused by the middle double cabs, but I expect it would been costly to make them compatible and give them an internal refurb to match the 1967s. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 9, 2012 20:59:44 GMT
There was a plan to increase each 3 car set into 6 car trains for the JLE I believe by ordering 3 extra cars, which I guess would have been 2 UNDMs and 1 trailer. . ....which is, so i was told, why the 1996 stock have those shallow windows, they were designed to be the same depth as those on the 1983 stock. And of course the 1995 stock is built to the same design |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 10, 2012 11:25:27 GMT
....which is, so i was told, why the 1996 stock have those shallow windows, they were designed to be the same depth as those on the 1983 stock. And of course the 1995 stock is built to the same design Correct  . And how sad that a whole generation of standing tube users were condemned to virtually no view thanks to the short-sighted (and short-term) decision based on the illusion that the fall in passenger numbers was going to be permanent  . |
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Post by t697 on Apr 11, 2012 21:31:55 GMT
There was a plan to increase each 3 car set into 6 car trains for the JLE I believe by ordering 3 extra cars, which I guess would have been 2 UNDMs and 1 trailer. . ....which is, so i was told, why the 1996 stock have those shallow windows, they were designed to be the same depth as those on the 1983 stock. And of course the 1995 stock is built to the same design But it gave a space inside for the internal dot matrix displays. And outside the 96TS looks so much sleeker than 92TS. (Ducks to avoid incoming from 92TS/09TS fans  ) |
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. And how sad that a whole generation of standing tube users were condemned to virtually no view thanks to the short-sighted (and short-term) decision based on the illusion that the fall in passenger numbers was going to be permanent 
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