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Post by jardine01 on Apr 11, 2012 7:25:24 GMT
I am looking forward to TBTC too hopefully it will make a big difference to the Northern line.
However I am concerned how long it is going to take to complete by 2014 is a while yet. When the loop cable is installed does that mean TBTC is Available to run?
However though these are the things which could let it down
Uncomfortable ride due to On off target speeds.
Faulty trains, Non communicating trains ect
How long it is going to take to fully bed in
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2012 8:15:12 GMT
I'm not sure that 2.5 years (mid 2011-2014), with some sections operating with late opening or weekend closures is that long for a complete signalling upgrade with a line as long as The Northern. If we draw comparisons
Berlin U1: entire line closed (constantly) for circa 9 months in 2010
Berlin U2: Half the line closed (constantly) for circa 9 months followed by the other half for 6 months in 2006-2007.
Also, if done properly, so that sections of TBTC on The Northern are enabled at a time, (as should of been the case with the Jub upgrade) then the bedding in process for the entire line should in theory be shorter.
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Post by DrOne on Apr 11, 2012 20:40:19 GMT
The Northern Line is basically reliable because the trains have reached maturity (the point where they are bedded in, depot staff are familiar with them, and operating staff know them well), and in the last few years Tube Lines really have got hold of the maintenance for signalling and track. It really is true to say that the biggest cause of problems on the Northern Line is generally passenger incidents in one form or another. The line also runs well because the current timetable (WTT53) is generally recoverable and has generous running times Mondays to Fridays. A legacy from a certain Mr Millard when he was General Manager. Is the partial peak-time splitting of the line (i.e. the timetable in which the split was introduced) also a factor in the improved reliability? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2012 22:33:50 GMT
Many of the hard working people who have been working flat out to get the Jub to where it is now from where it was when TBTC came in will be the same people involved in the northern, so I would not be expecting the same number of issues with the NL. There are a significant number of software and hardware improvements that have come out of the JL experience, and these will be applied to the NL where possible. Yes there are subtle differences, and I would be amazed if there is not some issues and potentially a decrease in reliability while it all beds in, but name me one upgrade like this that has gone smoothly since the 90's? Is TBTC the 'best' system out there - probably not in its current form which conceptually dates back to the 80's, and some of the technology design is from a similar era. Does it work - yes.......after a bit of tweaking and the right care and maintenance, which is significantly different to conventional signalling.
Jardine01 - I would expect the end product on the NL to be a very similar experience to the JL as the equipment is basically the same, so the on/off traction characteritics are likely to be the same also.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 7:23:02 GMT
While the Northern Line looks more complicated than the Jubilee, it's actually much simpler in many ways. It only has one fairly simple connection to non-TBTC lines, which is considerably simpler than the Jubilee-Met-Neasden Depot interface. There are also no platform edge doors, which is another interface that won't have to be dealt with. Seltrac in particular likes to be at the center of the universe, so it really works best on isolated lines that don't interact with anything else, and with trains that stay in ATO mode except when they're in the depot.
As far as efficiency and ride quality of the ATO, that depends on both the train and the line, so it's possible that the Northern might end up better or worse than the Jubilee. For example, if the train spends most of the distance between stations accelerating and then braking, with no time for coasting, then the ATO will do pretty well. If, on the other hand, there's a lot of coasting, and it's at a speed well below the top speed of the trains, then there's a possibility of a jerky ride if the ATO software and the train's traction package don't interact well.
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Post by jardine01 on Apr 17, 2012 15:07:04 GMT
There should not be any coasting between Embankment and charing cross!
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Apr 18, 2012 17:12:09 GMT
There should not be any coasting between Embankment and charing cross! |
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Post by alfie on Apr 18, 2012 19:11:08 GMT
They shouldn't let it roll for such a short distance - speed is everything Rich!
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Apr 18, 2012 21:52:52 GMT
They shouldn't let it roll for such a short distance - speed is everything Rich! Alfie - a PM is in your inbox! |
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Post by malcolmffc on May 1, 2012 7:40:29 GMT
How future proofed would the TBTC system be for the planned splitting of the Northern line into two?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 1, 2012 14:38:33 GMT
How future proofed would the TBTC system be for the planned splitting of the Northern line into two? Shouldn't affect it at all. |
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Post by jardine01 on May 4, 2012 5:11:06 GMT
Quote from Tube uprade plan:
This weekend we're testing the new state-of-the-art signalling system we're putting into the Northern line.
Once it's fully installed it will allow us to run trains faster from one end of the line to the other...so your journey times can be shorter.
Left, one of the frontline engineers explains why it's such a tricky job
is it me or does it sound like TBTC on the High Barnet branch is not far off?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2012 5:52:41 GMT
Yes, it does. But tfl have had that post up since January. Looking at the line closure list from tfl,. looks like the branch will have further closures until at least October.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 4, 2012 11:47:52 GMT
Well it shouldn't be difficult to speed up the Northern line; the running times between stations are now less than they were in 1929; if the upgrade can't correct that then serious questions need to be asked.
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Post by jardine01 on May 7, 2012 15:37:06 GMT
I heard that the Northern line upgrade might not be finished by 2014 maybe 2015 as told by a comment on Youtube. As he is doing the signals for the Northern line. Apparently the High Barnet branch is Half ready but there is still a long way to go yet. Obviously I am not going to take this word for granted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2012 18:59:08 GMT
I'd see any opinion voiced on YouTube or most other social media sites through a jaundiced eye Jardine. Not worth the bandwidth they're written on usually. The exception being here with LUL subjects where the male cow droppings tend to get filtered out sharpish.
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Post by jardine01 on May 7, 2012 20:40:52 GMT
Mind you the standard often exaggerates on articles on the tube  Also they use the wrong pictures I remember once an article for the Jubilee line had a 1967 stock picture! Somebody must not know the tube stocks very well! |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2012 21:44:20 GMT
Mind you the standard often exaggerates on articles on the tube Also they use the wrong pictures I remember once an article for the Jubilee line had a 1967 stock picture! Somebody must not know the tube stocks very well! Sadly neither they, most of their readers or passengers in general really care much about what stock they're on. As long as they get home OK that's all that matters. |
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Post by jardine01 on May 9, 2012 21:49:47 GMT
I would not be surprised if the works do overrun. It would be good if it was to be all finished by 2013/14 but hopefully lessons have been learnt since the Jubilee line upgrade. Although according to the tube upgrade plan it sounds like they are ahead of the game however the Edgeware branch does not look anywhere near ready the loop cable has not been installed yet! Well I will be using the Northern line soon First time I have been on that line in years |
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Post by jardine01 on May 11, 2012 15:01:02 GMT
From what I have heard Northern line TBTC will be turned on as little as 2 weeks away between Highgate and High Barnet! However No ATO for a while yet I presume it will just be driven in PM mode
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Post by alfie on May 11, 2012 15:08:54 GMT
Where have you heard that? Surprised Boris ain't raving on about 'removing the need for drivers on a huge section of LU'
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Post by londonstuff on May 11, 2012 15:09:25 GMT
From what I have heard Northern line TBTC will be turned on as little as 2 weeks away between Highgate and High Barnet! However No ATO for a while yet I presume it will just be driven in PM mode Can you reveal to the rest of us where your impecable source of information comes from? |
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Post by jardine01 on May 11, 2012 17:34:51 GMT
This is what it said on an Email:
my dad works for thales he is a tester for there new seltrac system he said in the next in about 2 weeks time from high barnet to highate will be completed but wont have ato until 2014 and also not all the train at golders green depot have not been installed with the new equipment thats why nothing has happened on edgware branch oh and btw the project is ahead of schedule.
This MUST be true I can't guarantee 100% but a person who tests the system is not going to lie
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Post by d7666 on May 11, 2012 19:18:20 GMT
Inevitably there will be differences between the Northern and the Jubilee as the 95s and 96s have different traction packages (the 95s using newer technology IIRC). Indeed, 1996 stock is GTO and 1995 stock IGBT, but those differences and the impact on TBTC was identified something like 4-5 years ago; this information has been published in technical papers through organisations like IRSE and/or IET. I left Jubilee 3+ years ago, and certainly before I left the tbtc/traction differences were known, there was just one small frequency range difference I think that needed different filtering that all. There was a 1996 stock set up at Highgate around then, this was one of the tests it was assisting with. -- Nick |
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Post by d7666 on May 11, 2012 19:22:52 GMT
I am guessing ... is this not the Northern Line DFA ?
Jubilee DFA was Canons Park - Kingsbury where trains ran in PM, this went live some time 2008. DFA was removed some time before real TBTC started from Stratford.
If it is DFA it is not really ATO - existing track circuits and trackside signals and IMR still do the train protection task.
--
Nick
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Post by alfie on May 11, 2012 20:21:06 GMT
Can you tell me what a DFA is please?  I would say the 'T' stood for 'Test' but of course there is no T. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 20:22:04 GMT
I am guessing ... is this not the Northern Line DFA ? Jubilee DFA was Canons Park - Kingsbury where trains ran in PM, this went live some time 2008. DFA was removed some time before real TBTC started from Stratford. If it is DFA it is not really ATO - existing track circuits and trackside signals and IMR still do the train protection task. -- Nick The Northern line is not having a DFA (Dual Fitted Area). The first section to go live (High Barnet to West Finchley) will be in full TBTC & ATO. What's just starting in that area is testing with trains - firstly with the existing signalling protecting the trains whilst the test engineers monitor TBTC and, from the end of this month (ish) using the new signalling for protection only in a test environment. So far all this is as per plan but as most of the testing now has to happen in engineering hours this is going to be a real challenge. Whatever was said on youtube seems to have lost some accuracy between dad and son ! |
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Post by alfie on May 11, 2012 20:26:48 GMT
Ah, thank you.
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Post by londonstuff on May 11, 2012 21:52:15 GMT
Whatever was said on youtube seems to have lost some accuracy between dad and son !    |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 19:04:05 GMT
This is what it said on an Email: my dad works for thales he is a tester for there new seltrac system he said in the next in about 2 weeks time from high barnet to highate will be completed but wont have ato until 2014 and also not all the train at golders green depot have not been installed with the new equipment thats why nothing has happened on edgware branch oh and btw the project is ahead of schedule. This MUST be true I can't guarantee 100% but a person who tests the system is not going to lie That a good news, and so rare in technical projects ! Congrats to Thales. |
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I would say the 'T' stood for 'Test' but of course there is no T.
