A random question about what might have been

As you probably know, I researched the history of the Heathrow extension from around 1972 and wrote a series of articles (one in parts) for Underground News on the extension authorisation procedures. I have seen previous extension proposals from around 1965 that always included the buiding of a new line from Feltham SR as it then was, to the airport, and even a monorail from Feltham! As you know runt of the District service to Hounslow West, i.e. peaks only, ceased in October 1964 and that meant no more stabling of Districts at Nothfields. At no stage have I ever seen any hint even of bringing back the District via Hounslow, though I have seen I think on this Forum, proposals in the past that had the District run to Feltham, and then to Richmond, in a big loop. I am not sure whether the District was to run to Heathrfow or just straight through from Hounslow East say to Richmond.

The reason why the Hatton Cross section was built the way it is, namely cut and cover and to tube gauge was one of cost saving. The tunnels are just below the surface and to make them deeper to accommodate sub-surface stock would have cost considerably more. The bridge over the River Crane had to be built as the engineers French found that the mud at the bottom of the river was so deep that piles put in disappeared! I have often wondered whether the tunnels could actualy have been made deeper if money was no object. David Bird who was the overall Civil Engineer i/c was a friend but I never asked him regrettably. It was however bad enough as built! If a decision had been made to at least run to Hounslow Central was scotchewd because the bridges over Lampton Road and Kingsley Road were replaced but to tube gauge only. Up until then it would have been possible I am sure to have rebuilt Hounslow West to enable sub-surface stock to terminate there and have a cross-over.

I should like to know where the released trains were used on after October 1964. Were they used to supplement existing services or replace older stock?

I also cannot see how the Picc could possibly reverse at Acton Town all day, unless more reversing sidings had been built at the West end. There is just the one and always has been.

Yes, please. I am sure that I saw here once that trains stabled at Northfields for one more week after HW lost its service. After that, what happened to the stock that was not required or was it just added to the pools at Ealing Common and Upminster Depots? I have only seen a photo with a red train at Northfields, taken near the end of the service so am not sure if CO/CP Stock was booked or whether R Stock was also used.

The annoying thing is that whilst my grandmother lived in HW, and we used to visit prior to 1965 when she died, we never went on the Underground into London when the DR was running: it was always off-peak or at weekends.

I've pretty sure I've got them here in 'Timetable Towers' but packed away in a box. What numbers?

I have a vague suspicion that a couple of CPs did stable at Northfields.



Never say always! When Acton Town new 'box opened there was *no* reversing siding on the west side. Acton Town new box opened on the 23rd January 1932 (Supp to TN 3/32), the LER siding was put in between the two LER Hounslow roads on Sunday 19th June (Supp. to TN 25/32: Alterations to Tracks and Signals West and East of Acton Town).

Between December 1931 and December 1932 (when the four tracks came in at Boston Manor) there were no less than 11 perils for the stageworks in sorting out Acton Town.

Wasn't that due also to the life expired Standards?

Begs the question would it cost a lot to rebuild the extension to sub-surface dimensions?

I've made mention on this Forum before that when giving an LURS lecture Mr J. Graeme Bruce, former Operating Manager of LT Railways, said his biggest regret while in office, was signing against authorisation for the Hatton Cross line to be of surface stock gauge, done purely on the grounds of cost.

Don't see how this would work. Fundamentally four western branches would divide the service from central London between them, 1/4 of the trains for Richmond, Heathrow, Ealing Broadway and Uxbridge.

Even at 30 tph through central would mean at most 7.5 tph on each branch, which would be vastly inadequate for modern demands, especially for Heathrow - which gets 12 tph currently from the Piccadilly Line and realistically needs more.

When I started on LT in March of '65 and became a DR Guard at Northfields, (eventually running regularly with Jimmy Cripps) it was purely a District booking on point. That said, those of us that lived East of NF actually booked on with the SM at Acton and he 'phoned us over to NF. As far as I recall there were no scheduled DR stabling at Northfields although that is not to say it wasn't used as a emergency reversing point if the service was disrupted - or if a driver took a wrong un!

Which routes did the CP stock operate? I think the Q stock mainly ran the Putney-Edgware Road service. The CP stock would have run mainly in 6 car trains? M-T-M+M-T-M Most 2 car units were lengthened to 3 cars after moving from the Met by using Q38 trailers. When did CP (CO/CP?) operate the ELL? I guess a few 2 car units would have been used for this service M-M+M-T-M.

How would Rayners and Ruislip figured in to short Districts had they kept the Uxbridge branch?

With S stock and the new signalling the opportunity is there to reinstate the District to Uxbridge and send the Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway.

mrfs42
..............AFAICR the speed restriction under bridges for surface stock is not just Rayners/S Harrow, but Rayners right down to where the District & Picc currently split twixt Acton Town & N Ealing. I THINK this is more to do with width than height.

About 40+ years ago l remember seeing old rusting red on white enamel signs on some of the parapets - was the speed limit then 15mph??