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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 11:47:56 GMT
A couple of weekends ago the Hammersmith and City Line was running until Kings Cross.
Once they reach Kings Cross how far past Kings Cross does it continue before returning the other direction?
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Post by memorex on Jan 30, 2012 12:38:43 GMT
As far as King's Cross Disused, IIRC
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Post by londonstuff on Jan 30, 2012 18:46:51 GMT
Yes, as far as I can see on my maps, that's correct. The trains keep going towards Barbican for a short while, stop, driver changes ends and then goes across a crossover from the outer to the inner. To make matters slightly more complex I believe there used to be a centre reversing siding but that was done away with after 1987 to allow the plaform concourse area to be expanded. I'm sure others can add more than I can. As far as King's Cross Disused, IIRC |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 19:32:39 GMT
No centre reversing siding as such. A centre bay was provided as part of the 1935-40 New Works Programme new (Met) station (i.e. the existing one) and track was laid. It was never used by electric trains, but I don't know if engineers trains ever used it. I do remember it being there as a kid in the 1950s. It was 'covered up' by new platform buildings many years later and it wasn't on public view when I worked there in 1969/70.
However, in connection with the rebuilding of King's Cross LU station at the time, an unelectrified engineers siding was commissioned on 17/1/93 on the inner rail/westbound, west of the station, trailing back a short distance east in the area of the unused bay but in an area unseen by the public. The siding was unsignalled and had handworked points.
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Post by v52gc on Jan 31, 2012 0:54:22 GMT
No centre reversing siding as such. A centre bay was provided as part of the 1935-40 New Works Programme new (Met) station (i.e. the existing one) and track was laid. It was never used by electric trains, but I don't know if engineers trains ever used it. I do remember it being there as a kid in the 1950s. It was 'covered up' by new platform buildings many years later and it wasn't on public view when I worked there in 1969/70. However, in connection with the rebuilding of King's Cross LU station at the time, an unelectrified engineers siding was commissioned on 17/1/93 on the inner rail/westbound, west of the station, trailing back a short distance east in the area of the unused bay but in an area unseen by the public. The siding was unsignalled and had handworked points. I recall reading or hearing somewhere that this former siding was to be connected to the Piccadilly (?!) or is this porkies? Anybody know? |
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Post by Harsig on Jan 31, 2012 7:16:20 GMT
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that this former siding was to be connected to the Piccadilly (?!) or is this porkies? Anybody know? My understanding was that the siding was provided in connection with the intended construction of a low level passenger interchange subway connecting the Met/C&H platforms to the tube line platforms to relieve the existing route via the tube ticket hall. The siding was to be used by engineers trains to remove the spoil from this passageway. The idea that the siding itself was to connect to the Piccadilly Line is, I suggest, a misunderstanding of this interchange subway scheme. |
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Post by v52gc on Jan 31, 2012 9:15:19 GMT
Interesting, thanks for the reply... Much appreciated.
Looks like it was a good idea...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 13:42:10 GMT
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that this former siding was to be connected to the Piccadilly (?!) or is this porkies? Anybody know? Hi, Probably a confusion with the "King's Cross loop" which connects, AFAIK the Northern and the Picc. |
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Post by v52gc on Feb 14, 2012 17:22:58 GMT
I recall reading or hearing somewhere that this former siding was to be connected to the Piccadilly (?!) or is this porkies? Anybody know? Hi, Probably a confusion with the "King's Cross loop" which connects, AFAIK the Northern and the Picc. No, I was talking about the small trailing siding after leaving Kings X Sub Surface Inner Rail. I think my source was the Met Mainline Drivers Eye View video but I haven't watched it in ages. Yes you are correct, the kings cross loop connects the Pic and Northern. This is accessed by a shunt move from the Eastbound Pic. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 23:43:02 GMT
Hi, v52gc, When reading this map: carto.metro.free.fr/metro-tram-london/ one might think the circle siding ends just above theI KX loop... So why not thinking of a connection? I have (on my computer) two diagrams of the loop, with signals etc... There is no visible connexion with the surface lines. Unfortunately, I'm not able to transfer these pics to my post ! Anyway, it would not prove that there has not been a currently disused, or simply planned, connection between this tube loop and the sub-surface lines... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2012 16:59:58 GMT
My understanding was that the siding was provided in connection with the intended construction of a low level passenger interchange subway connecting the Met/C&H platforms to the tube line platforms to relieve the existing route via the tube ticket hall. So when is that going to be built / why wasn't it? It seems more sane than the current arrangements. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 12, 2012 19:13:52 GMT
With the engineering works this weekend, 17/18March, the H&C are reversing at Edgware Road but the MET main are running through to Kings Cross.
2 questions;
- do A Stock have KINGS CROSS blinds?
- is there work preventing the H&C from getting to Kings Cross instead?
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Post by Harsig on Mar 12, 2012 20:15:48 GMT
With the engineering works this weekend, 17/18March, the H&C are reversing at Edgware Road but the MET main are running through to Kings Cross. 2 questions; - do A Stock have KINGS CROSS blinds? - is there work preventing the H&C from getting to Kings Cross instead? Some signal re-positioning work is taking place in platform 5 at Baker Street. As a consequence there is a very short engineers possession of the line between a point just west of Baker Street and Baker Street Sub-Station Gap, which is between the platforms and Baker Street Junction. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 12, 2012 21:39:15 GMT
Yes A stock do have Kings Cross blinds. Quite a rare sight though.
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Post by djlynch on Mar 14, 2012 1:56:40 GMT
Why King's Cross and not Aldgate? Is it a matter of not having enough drivers available to extend the service that far without cutting frequencies, or a lack of demand to/from the City during the weekend?
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Post by DWS on Mar 14, 2012 8:34:40 GMT
Why King's Cross and not Aldgate? Is it a matter of not having enough drivers available to extend the service that far without cutting frequencies, or a lack of demand to/from the City during the weekend? Engineering Work at Farringdon, Moorgate and Liverpool Street, means no service between King's Cross and Aldgate. Nothing to do with not having enough drivers available. |
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Post by djlynch on Mar 14, 2012 14:35:22 GMT
Ta. Not actually being in London, I don't pay close attention to the weekend closures week to week and the ongoing works in that area didn't come to mind.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2012 18:28:06 GMT
Although I am led to believe that the platform indicators (TD) won't display KINGS CROSS. With a choice of SPECIAL or MOORGATE to be used it has been decided to use Moorgate as not to create confusion (sic)
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Post by citysig on Mar 14, 2012 22:19:46 GMT
Just to clarify... The platform describers from Wembley Park and south thereof can show King's Cross. However.. Harrow signal cabin is unable to display King's Cross, and therefore cannot send such a description to the Baker Street SCC. To keep things simple from a timetable compiling point of view, they have opted for a TD which is mutually acceptable to both Harrow and the SCC (although other options were available, had the right people been asked   ) Moorgate is a destination further than Baker Street, which will hopefully encourage those waiting at stations to catch the Met services into the city. If they were all shown as Baker Street, many people would hang around for a destination further than that. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 7:16:14 GMT
Although you are very reliant on information being passed on which informs the passengers that in fact the train is terminating at Kings Cross. Otherwise the staff at Kings Cross will be left to manage the passengers expectations and although only involves a simple journey on the Northern Line, experience tells me it only takes 1 person and your dwell time at KX will extend considerably.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 19:25:25 GMT
Just to clarify... The platform describers from Wembley Park and south thereof can show King's Cross. However.. Harrow signal cabin is unable to display King's Cross, and therefore cannot send such a description to the Baker Street SCC. To keep things simple from a timetable compiling point of view, they have opted for a TD which is mutually acceptable to both Harrow and the SCC (although other options were available, had the right people been asked ) Moorgate is a destination further than Baker Street, which will hopefully encourage those waiting at stations to catch the Met services into the city. If they were all shown as Baker Street, many people would hang around for a destination further than that. Hi mc, out of interest what would the better option for td have been? Thanks - tfc |
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Post by citysig on Mar 16, 2012 22:48:45 GMT
This may confuse those without prior knowledge of the SCC, but to answer the question  As an example, Earl's Court control room cannot "send" a Hammersmith TD for ex-Circle Line trains that will arrive at Aldgate on the inner-rail to Baker Street SCC. So a compromise is reached in that the initial TD sent is an "old-fashioned" Circle Line TD, which then becomes changed to a "Hammersmith" TD at the next computer controlled site. The train is allocated correctly at the fringe of Earl's Court/SCC and the computer trip-edit sorts the rest. Using this principal, Harrow could easily have sent either a Baker Street or Moorgate TD to the SCC, with the trip edit handling a change to King's Cross following the Wembley Park stop. Alternatively, a more ambitious method could also have been used to "fool" the SCC that a train was a "King's Cross" train - but I won't go into that as we don't all have experience in the workings of the SCC ;D |
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Post by charleyfarley on Mar 19, 2012 20:27:21 GMT
Isn't showing a train as a Moorgate train knowing full well that it cannot get there a form of false advertising? Surely bold signs could be printed to display in the cab window and the actual blind left blank
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Post by castlebar on Mar 19, 2012 20:45:36 GMT
Oh Charley, NO
The destination appears in a "Destination INDICATOR" It is not "advertising" anything. The indication is wrong, but no money is lost and an advertisement constitutes "an invitation to part with money in exchange for goods or services". Nobody who buys a ticket doesn't get to where they want to go, AND, the money has already been parted with before the train's "destination indication" is seen, so this is not a misleading advertisement. Nor is it any form of advertisement in any sense. It is an INDICATION of where the train is (probably) going. Just occasionally, these indications are wrong (see Met thread)
End of.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 19, 2012 21:47:55 GMT
Oh Charley, NO The destination appears in a "Destination INDICATOR" It is not "advertising" anything. The indication is wrong, but no money is lost and an advertisement constitutes "an invitation to part with money in exchange for goods or services". Nobody who buys a ticket doesn't get to where they want to go, AND, the money has already been parted with before the train's "destination indication" is seen, so this is not a misleading advertisement. Nor is it any form of advertisement in any sense. It is an INDICATION of where the train is (probably) going. Just occasionally, these indications are wrong (see Met thread) End of. True, but you can kind of see his point! Rarely do trains set up a deliberately false destination! Having said that, it was quite common a few years back during engineering works for trains to display a destination beyond where the train was due to terminate. As an example. if the District was closed between Barking and Upminster, the train would still show an Upminster destination, presumably so that all passengers would at least get as far as Barking in order to connect with rail replacement services. This practice doesn't seem to happen any more. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 20, 2012 7:42:15 GMT
Trains are sometimes advertised as going SHOTR of their destination, usually because another train will get you there more quickly - the Circle Line is an example - they don't show "Hammersmith" or "Edgware Road" until they get to Aldgate.
The old class 115 units out of Marylebone had "little Kimble" available as a destination on their blinds, for use on Aylesbury via Wycombe services - this seemed a little odd, as the choice of a more direct route to Aylesbury was only available at Marylebone itself, and no-one there would see the front of the train!
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Post by metman on Mar 20, 2012 11:25:12 GMT
The Harrow platform boards can only show Baker Street; Aldgate; Liverpool Street; Wembley Park; Moorgate and Stops Here so I think Moorgate was a fair description.
Often the staff at Harrow blank out the sections of line closed so pax would get a good idea of where trains are running to. Then there's the hundreds of signs round the station...
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Post by carltona on Mar 20, 2012 17:43:01 GMT
I experienced the KX terminators on Sat/Sun, seemed to work ok. But of course the confused looking tourists had to be tipped out. Giving a short destination is still very common on NR, certainly at KX suburban and services into Paddington.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 15:54:38 GMT
While slightly OT - I managed to experience wrong road running from almost Farringdon back to KX using the cross over between KX disused and current KX to regain the correct road. Was on 23 December last year (the last Friday pre Christmas) and I spent a fair amount of time admiring the Clerkenwell tunnels before the decision was made for us to run back to KX.
We were pretty unlucky - just in front of us there had been a signal failure (or multiple failure)at Farringdon and the train in front of us had to crawl through signal to signal. This took some time and it appears some quick acting stopped the train behind us leaving KX. After some deliberation (we were meant to also proceed forward to Farringdon), it was announced we would go back to KX.
Besides the usual ridiculous reactions from my fellow passengers who have no understanding (or desire to understand) how a railway works so let out the usual TfL this and that rants, the faces of the passengers on an IR circle train as our A stock started to go the same way as them on the OR were priceless.
Fun experience, but I did spend 45 minutes + in Clerkenwell tunnels...
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