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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 20:58:08 GMT
Evening all, whilst waiting for a train to leave West Ruislip, we were all told to cross over to the unit as this unit was 'defective'. Just wondering what was wrong with it  I would give a unit number, but I forgot to note it down! EDIT: Hang on, 92120 was in the formation |
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Post by Tubeboy on Jan 6, 2012 21:11:50 GMT
Defective driver's seat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 21:15:40 GMT
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 6, 2012 22:09:20 GMT
Do they really need to take the train out of service just because the driver cant sit down?
Isent there two seats in the cab?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 22:17:47 GMT
H&S or somthing or some union agreement
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Post by dagdave on Jan 6, 2012 22:29:33 GMT
Would anyone like to drive their car for over an hour with a broken seat?
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Post by causton on Jan 7, 2012 1:19:24 GMT
Do they really need to take the train out of service just because the driver cant sit down? Isent there two seats in the cab? There are 54 seats* in a coach but I'm sure the driver wouldn't want to sit in one that wasn't the driver's seat! *on average, last one I was on had 52 + driver + the 'crew' one that blocks the door |
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Post by plasmid on Jan 7, 2012 16:35:52 GMT
Train needs to be taken out of service but the driver could have waited until the end of shift...
This was many years ago but I've seen a 92ts driver standing in the middle of the cab in front of the door with their arms folded whilst the train was entering a station...
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Post by suncloud on Jan 7, 2012 16:50:23 GMT
Modern cabs are designed around the driver being sat in the drivers seat. The driver, will only be able to see what he needs to (track ahead, signals, instruments etc) and the controls he needs to use, from being sat down in a correctly positioned seat. If the seat doesn't enable that to happen without causing injury to the driver... then I can totally understand their refusing to take it out on a one hour journey. (without out a guarantee that it'll even get fixed then).
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Post by superteacher on Jan 7, 2012 20:47:25 GMT
Modern cabs are designed around the driver being sat in the drivers seat. The driver, will only be able to see what he needs to (track ahead, signals, instruments etc) and the controls he needs to use, from being sat down in a correctly positioned seat. If the seat doesn't enable that to happen without causing injury to the driver... then I can totally understand their refusing to take it out on a one hour journey. (without out a guarantee that it'll even get fixed then). 1992 stock can be operated without the driver sitting in the main drivers seat as long as the unit remains in ATO, as there are start buttons near to the other seat. The driver would, however, have to leave this seat to open and close the doors (I think)! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2012 22:59:26 GMT
I thought central line trains drove themselves so being able so sit is not as critical?
In the days when men were men and trains were steam powered ....
I seem to recall from museum trips that early tube trains did not appear to have drivers seats. Does anyone know when the first one had seats for drivers?
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Post by suncloud on Jan 8, 2012 23:03:18 GMT
Even in ATO the operator has a set of responsibilities that are best carried out from the drivers seat. Yes maybe the train can move with the operator in a different position, but that doesn't mean that's the way things /should/ be done. There is also the possibility that the train may need to operate manually...
I can't comment much further as I've never been in a 92ts cab...
However, West Ruislip is also a convenient location to take a train out of service as it can go straight into Ruislip depot...
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 9, 2012 0:53:52 GMT
I wonder how long a teacher/office or shop worker/bus or taxi driver/ call centre operator or line controller/etc, etc, etc would last with a defective seat...............yeah, I thought so!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2012 5:37:49 GMT
Train needs to be taken out of service but the driver could have waited until the end of shift... If a train needs to go out of service then a changeover will take place at the depots, Hainault and Ruislip, though it would also be possible at White City, Woodford or Loughton if trains were available. Why take dud train through the pipe when it’s at a changeover point? 1992 stock can be operated without the driver sitting in the main drivers seat as long as the unit remains in ATO, as there are start buttons near to the other seat. The driver would, however, have to leave this seat to open and close the doors (I think)! You can start the train in ATO from the console by the trainer’s seat but there are no door buttons, no door closed visual, no local aux visual and no radio or comms panel. We do have an emergency stop button and a whistle. Most important of all you can’t drive in manual and we do that a lot more than people realise. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 9, 2012 11:18:35 GMT
You can start the train in ATO from the console by the trainer’s seat but there are no door buttons, no door closed visual, no local aux visual and no radio or comms panel. We do have an emergency stop button and a whistle. Most important of all you can’t drive in manual and we do that a lot more than people realise. I'm reasonably familiar with Vic Line ATO (the original stuff anyway) but not Central Line. Where do you regularly do manual driving - CM I mean? Reversing sidings? |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 9, 2012 12:33:20 GMT
I only know what I've learned recently..............all sidings & depots are manually driven; and if a train is required to be stopped for protection, say for staff on the track or to retrieve items from the track in platform areas, the train has to be driven in coded manual from the previous station.
Then you have failures & White route locking. White route locking is, in simple terms, where the route is set & locked but the train can't move over it in ATO - select manual and away you go. There is of course more to it than that, but its really another thread.
Failures - say loss of codes - train is driven manually until driver is able to obtain codes again at next block marker board.
Obviously most of this isn't driving from one of the line to the other, but it could quite conceivably add up to a fair bit of driving on a really bad day.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 9, 2012 13:08:53 GMT
The Central Line ATO also has a tendency to perform poorly in certain weather conditions, notably light rain can result in a train stopping 3-4 cars short of the stopping mark.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2012 18:05:25 GMT
^ I've always put that down to poor rail head adhesion.
They get partway down the platform,decide they're not going to stop in time,the gubbins goes 'Oh sh*t' and drops everything as there is much releasing of air.
I guess the driver then manually drives to the correct stopping point.
It's always amusing to watch people busy stabbing at the Door Open buttons in an attempt to get out before the train reaches the correct position.
If it's only been a light shower following trains seem to stop normally after the first has cleaned the rail.
It's not uncommon to see trains arriving at Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip with the train operator stood up.
So far I've seen no mention as why I assume the OP was at W Ruislip at the time.
8M99 1651 W Ruislip-Stonebridge Park 66701 + 2 battery locos and 3 wagons via most of East London.
Allegedly because the new Jubilee Line signalling requires a possession to transfer engineering trains to the Bakerloo and they would get on site too late.
Andy
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 9, 2012 18:12:08 GMT
I see allot manual driving around White city to Ealing Brodway especally when it is warm the drivers often have their doors open.
Unlike the Jubilee line the Central line I get the inpression you can drive manually when ever you want really.
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Post by auxsetreq on Jan 9, 2012 23:58:53 GMT
You can start the train in ATO from the console by the trainer’s seat but there are no door buttons, no door closed visual, no local aux visual and no radio or comms panel. We do have an emergency stop button and a whistle. Most important of all you can’t drive in manual and we do that a lot more than people realise. I'm reasonably familiar with Vic Line ATO (the original stuff anyway) but not Central Line. Where do you regularly do manual driving - CM I mean? Reversing sidings? On Sundays and BHDs all open sections default, or are supposed to default to manual operation. Drivers are expected to be able to drive at full speed manual *anywhere* should ATO be withdrawn or is not working for whatever reason. Drivers are "encouraged" to be in CM as much as possible, especially off peak in open sections so as to keep up their driving skills. This is because of the unreliability of ATO set-up............... So the notion that the Central is a fully operating ATO line is utter bollox. The best description would be - It's a manual line that has trains that have the fickle ability to drive themselves when they feel like it and the rail conditions are right. Don't worry though. All this will be sorted out for the EVOstuck driverless/staffless away-with-the-fairies fantasy tube. Really, it will be.......... |
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 10, 2012 7:18:14 GMT
I would call the Jubilee and Victoria line Full ATO as their signaling is more modern.
However why don't the vic and the Jub not drive manually to keep in practise?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 8:18:45 GMT
I suppose it has something to do that they (Jubilee and Victoria) both have a high frequency throughout, whereas the central is a bit slacker once you get out of the busy section. More Jubilees through West Ham than Centrals through Chigwell.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 18:27:26 GMT
The thing is that both the Jubbly and the Viccy TOps have to be able to drive manually if needed and I’m pretty sure they both have to work the trains in and out of depots and sidings. No idea when thye practise as I've never worked those lines.
A great example of when manual driving is necessary was when I was approaching the coloured-light single protecting Debden siding on the Westbound this afternoon and the train suddenly pulled up in a heap. No rain, no ice.
DTS diagnosed this as an “Overspeed” due to “Invalid Target Speed Change” and the only way to get the train into the platform was to knock it into CM. And this happens a lot more than people realise, we’ve had a reoccurring “Overspeed” WB just down the tunnel from Stratford on and off for the last year or so.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 10, 2012 19:48:40 GMT
I wonder how long a shop worker would last with a defective seat...............yeah, I thought so! Easy, I don't get a seat; I have to stand for nine hours a day! However when I need to stand for prolonged periods on solid floors I do get a bit of foam rubber to stand on. I do take your point though; I've just bought some new ski boots and took a few hours to make sure they were the right fit as I don't want to spend the week after next with my left little toe trying to prove that it's tougher than plastic and sod any blood flow that gets in the way! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 20:22:18 GMT
I wonder how long a shop worker would last with a defective seat...............yeah, I thought so! Easy, I don't get a seat; I have to stand for nine hours a day! However when I need to stand for prolonged periods on solid floors I do get a bit of foam rubber to stand on. I do take your point though; I've just bought some new ski boots and took a few hours to make sure they were the right fit as I don't want to spend the week after next with my left little toe trying to prove that it's tougher than plastic and sod any blood flow that gets in the way! What do you work as? |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 10, 2012 20:30:29 GMT
I'm a Community Pharmacist and also the acting Manager of the Pharmacy that I currently work in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 20:36:13 GMT
Ahh
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2012 23:13:35 GMT
I only know what I've learned recently..............all sidings & depots are manually driven; IIRC correctly from another thread, if the train is leaving from a platform and the move is a colloured signal move, ATO can be used? However it can not be used exiting a siding because no PACs are installed. Additionally moves with a shunt signal cannot be done in ATO. At least that is what I remember, can anyone confirm? [quote author=colin board=thecentralline thread=18445 post=321486 time=1326112400] Then you have failures & White route locking. White route locking is, in simple terms, where the route is set & locked but the train can't move over it in ATO - select manual and away you go. There is of course more to it than that [/quote] What is white locking, I've never heard of that before, anyone care to explain? |
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Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2012 1:24:06 GMT
I only know what I've learned recently..............all sidings & depots are manually driven; IIRC correctly from another thread, if the train is leaving from a platform and the move is a colloured signal move, ATO can be used? However it can not be used exiting a siding because no PACs are installed. Additionally moves with a shunt signal cannot be done in ATO. At least that is what I remember, can anyone confirm? It depends where the move will end up. Ruislip Gardens to West Ruislip No. 23 Road is a CM move, as you end up taking a shunt route at WER1070. We did try it in ATO on an test train once and have to (very hurriedly) take the train out of ATO... [quote author=colin board=thecentralline thread=18445 post=321486 time=1326112400] Then you have failures & White route locking. White route locking is, in simple terms, where the route is set & locked but the train can't move over it in ATO - select manual and away you go. There is of course more to it than that What is white locking, I've never heard of that before, anyone care to explain?[/quote] It's a new-ish concept to me, but my understanding is this: The signalling, when setting a route does it in a number of levels, such as Checking the route is available, calling the points, locking the points, checking the route is unoccupied, applying the approach locking, before allowing the signal to clear and codes to be applied. Once the points are called and locked, the route is shown selected on the Signaller's diagram with white lights, displaying that the route has been called and held in the process of getting a signal to clear. If the signal doesn't clear due to a failure further down the chain (in what's sometimes referred to as the 'apect level'), the white 'line of route' indications, commonly known as 'White route locking' indicate that the points are in position and locked through the route. I guess this is used to justify not needing to secure points before allowing a train to proceed past the failed signal at danger. Quite why this is being done instead of selecting Remote Securing is beyond me, though... |
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Post by Colin on Jan 11, 2012 2:10:38 GMT
Didn't I suggest White route locking should be discussed in a seperate thread?!! Oh well, as the drift starts in the second part of a post, a thread split isn't so easy.... ..... In relation to using the RS visuals.............I believe they don't work if the ESP's (platform Emergency Stop Plungers) are operated. White route locking still works regardless and is therefore the favoured procedure. I'm open to correction but that's my understanding. |
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I would give a unit number, but I forgot to note it down!
