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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 17:55:58 GMT
showing that there is some sort of demand for a 'regular heritage service'. But it gotthe attention because it was a one-off. Did people flock to the Epping-Ongar line on a daily basis when it was the last outpost of 1960 stock? The Aldwych branch in the 1950s, running the last Gate Stock? The Lymington branch with its "slammers"? Even the "Heritage" Routemaster services have become part of the scenery. They may see slightly more use than the normal 9s and 15s, but only because they are easier to board on a whim. If an S4 is not possible (and I'm not sure a unit would work with any cars missing other than the "M2" (23xxx) cars), could SDO be used on an S8 to ensure only the cars on the bay platform at C&L are opened? How many times since the shuttle was officially withdrawn has it been found expedient to run it? Im sure gate stock would have got regular attention aswell as the other things you have mentioned, it would be better if someone who can remember those (maybe not the gate stock) could say wether Im right or wrong here, but I know for a fact that the reason the Routemaster heritage routes are not attracting enthusiasts because they are 'Fakemasters' or 'Dartmasters' this is because they have the same engine and gearbox as your average 10yr old single decker bus rather than an original AEC engine!
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 11, 2011 18:03:50 GMT
...and we're back on the (IMHO) bloody-minded stupidity of not spending the relatively small amount of money to extend the bay for 8 cars. IIRC, the points are being moved westward to largely remove the stretch of 3 tracking anyway, so that largely removes the arguments for savings on trackwork changes. A concrete platform extension really doesn't cost that much at all.
It's very easy: move the points westwards and extend the platform.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 11, 2011 18:11:38 GMT
The bodywork is the same, they just gave them more efficient engines, which, due to the RM's aluminum construction, happens to be more efficient then other buses.
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Post by citysig on Dec 11, 2011 18:23:22 GMT
::)Yawn For goodness knows how many times now... The bay is not going to be extended. The shuttle as a timetabled service is history. There will be S7s and S8s - the latter on the Met. To retain any heritage stock or to have dedicated buses/trains/pushbikes to be used during the odd occasion when a through service is not possible, costs far more to maintain than the cost of providing special one-off transport. If there is a shutdown on, say, the Watford Branch we suspend the service. If there are no alternative transport means, we provide them - just as we will do for Chesham. The 4-car was used because it was available. Yes that in itself may seem to the outsider to justify keeping a 4-car fully serviceable. But it is nowhere near the sort of justification needed. The movement of the pointwork is not anywhere near being carried out. It is on the cards to be done at some point, along with the movement of Harrow North Junction - both projects are now much less "urgent" given the timetable we operate. People, we have to move on. Whatever the future holds for the branch, we are in the transport business, and as such have to make transport business decisions.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Dec 11, 2011 18:44:46 GMT
No politician or manager ever lost his job because he didn't spend money.
Hence the lack of new infrastructure in this country. "Mend" a junction rather than build a new one etc. Then mend it again next month. Don't maintain a couple of 4 car A stock sets for any possible emergency use, or use them for heritage purposes in the future, no, flog them for scrap whilst we can still get fifty quid each for them.
Perhaps LUL should have bought a couple of cheap bendy buses for Chesham rail replacement.
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Post by suncloud on Dec 11, 2011 21:10:22 GMT
If LU/TfL were to maintain a bus or two, employ a team of drivers and make arrangements for the storage and maintenance to provide 18 hours of cover specifically for problems arising on the Chesham branch, then they might as well tear up the rails and run a bus service from amersham all day every day.
If you open it up and say they should have a small fleet to cover each area of London (e.g. n, s, e and w), then the investment is more spread, but it would take so long to get buses to some sections the problems might be fixed, or you would get so few buses to a busy section it makes no difference.
TfL are a public service business, they have an obligation to get you to your destination, but also to do so in the most cost-effective way that resources allow. This weekend this meant taking a 4 car A-stock out of the depot and running a shuttle. Looking forward, not only will there be costs in maintaining stock for this to be an option, but also in maintaining a pool of drivers signed off to drive it in public service.
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 11, 2011 22:29:35 GMT
...the point I was trying to make is that whilst the through service might be flavour of the month now...once they start seeing cancellations et al. there might be a dramatic change of heart. Once that bay's gone though...that's it. I'm firmly of the opinion that the most efficient way to run a railway is with fewer branches and well-timetabled interchanges. The only other way to have the same capacity is to run a shuttle Chesham-Chalfont-Amersham and back again between through services, which without the bay would probably be a nightmare on the timetabling.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 22:36:52 GMT
Or Chesham to Watford! The track is there and looking at the WTT for the christmas period, there will be a couple of days where this will 'sort of' be the case (Chesham/Amersham - Baker Street via Watford)
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 11, 2011 23:38:10 GMT
for the christmas period, there will be a couple of days where this will 'sort of' be the case (Chesham/Amersham - Baker Street via Watford) Oooh (excited!) When will that be - I've never been up early enough to do that curve!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 23:55:35 GMT
for the christmas period, there will be a couple of days where this will 'sort of' be the case (Chesham/Amersham - Baker Street via Watford) Oooh (excited!) When will that be - I've never been up early enough to do that curve! 0830-Close on 26th December (Amersham and Chesham) 0400-1000 on 1st January (Amersham and Chesham)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2011 19:53:12 GMT
Or Chesham to Watford! The track is there and looking at the WTT for the christmas period, there will be a couple of days where this will 'sort of' be the case (Chesham/Amersham - Baker Street via Watford) so let me get this right ... Remove through off peak Chesham - London trains Reduce the through London trains from stations Ricky to C&L to 2 per hour Introduce conflicting junction moves at 2 new locations to the off peak standard and when something goes wrong with points/signals on the branch like it did on Saturday, you're in exactly the same situation yeah go on then . . . why don't you write a letter to the north met bugle and tell them about it, I'm sure people will be all over that one!
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 12, 2011 19:54:56 GMT
Why would someone need to go from Chesham to Watford? Remember, it's mostly a commuter town with people who need to go to London, not to Watford.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Dec 12, 2011 20:04:13 GMT
Why would someone want to go from Bedford to Milton Keynes, Shopping. X5 Oxford -Cambridge on Boxing Day a couple of years ago was practically standing room only. That was with premium being charged. The route between AMersham/ Chesham- Watford Met and eventually Watford Jct. Even more reason for a service evn
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Dec 12, 2011 21:15:18 GMT
Why would someone need to go from Chesham to Watford? Similarly, Why would anyone want to go to Northolt, Greenford or Perivale from Hillingdon or Uxbridge? Well, the truth is they do, and that is why the local roads are saturated. Often because people who live at one end work at the other. However, Hillingdon Council are on the case. The ridiculous decision to terminate Central Line services at W Ruislip instead of diverting them south to where they are needed will one day have people asking a different question, "Why did it take so long??" and "Why did some people go out of their ways to prevent it happening"? Answer: No politician or (so called) manager ever lost his job (unfortunately) for NOT spending money.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2011 22:09:16 GMT
Why would someone need to go from Chesham to Watford? and low and behold they can ! change at Moor Park and if you want to give them the direct option, you go and tell the far greater majority of people who travel from Chesham to Harrow and London that they've lost their through service for the Chesham - Watford brigade (whoever these folk are!) it's Chesham it's single line it won't get doubled FACT it's one option or the other !!! let's finish this particular scenario with a vote What it is the most passenger friendly/useful service for Chesham? 1.) Chesham - Watford 2.) Chesham - Central London I don't live anywhere near Chesham or Watford and rarely use the Met, so I have no vested interest I'd vote 2 !!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2011 22:09:34 GMT
Why would someone need to go from Chesham to Watford? Remember, it's mostly a commuter town with people who need to go to London, not to Watford. I know a lot of people who work in Watford and live in Chesham. The point is, is it will be largely immune from problems in the city. Not entirely but largely.
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 12, 2011 22:53:37 GMT
Just as another data point, a friend of mine is moving from Watford to Chesham, and relying on the Croxley rail link to help him continue to join us on our nights out in Watford. A direct Chesham-Watford Junction service also gets him to the volunteer radio station we both work at quite handily, meaning no need to drive.
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Post by citysig on Dec 12, 2011 23:38:12 GMT
Why would someone need to go from Chesham to Watford? and low and behold they can ! change at Moor Park And now, thanks to the new timetable, this change is via an island platform and not via the subway ;D
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Post by aldenham on Dec 15, 2011 20:07:38 GMT
I wonder how attractive a Chesham-Watford shuttle would be to more than a handful of people, mainly as it takes about 20mins to drive from the centre of one to the other, whereas the train would take getting on for double that, then another 15mins walk from the Met station to the centre of Watford. So whilst I don't think many of us in zone 9 are great fans of the new WTT, I think we would rather have it than having to go back to changing for trains to/from London.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 21:15:08 GMT
I wonder how attractive a Chesham-Watford shuttle would be to more than a handful of people, mainly as it takes about 20mins to drive from the centre of one to the other, whereas the train would take getting on for double that, then another 15mins walk from the Met station to the centre of Watford. So whilst I don't think many of us in zone 9 are great fans of the new WTT, I think we would rather have it than having to go back to changing for trains to/from London. However if the timetable were written well, you'd make connections with fast/Chiltern trains at Chalfont or Rickmansworth thus making the journey faster and still serve more of a purpose than a Chesham-Chalfont shuttle.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 15, 2011 22:37:57 GMT
I wonder how attractive a Chesham-Watford shuttle would be to more than a handful of people, mainly as it takes about 20mins to drive from the centre of one to the other, whereas the train would take getting on for double that, then another 15mins walk from the Met station to the centre of Watford. For those who can drive, and have somewhere to park when they get there, no contest. For everyone else it would be very useful - especially when it goes to Watford High Street and you don't have to walk across the park! connections at the Junction would also be popular: at least until the proposed Chiltern service to Milton Keynes starts to compete. How long would the journey take from say Rickmansworth to Harrow & W, Wembley Central or Euston, compared to the existing (now all stations) service to HOTH, Wembley Park, and Euston Square. Ricky to St Albans via WJ, compared to via St Pancras?
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Post by andypurk on Dec 26, 2011 0:39:17 GMT
I wonder how attractive a Chesham-Watford shuttle would be to more than a handful of people, mainly as it takes about 20mins to drive from the centre of one to the other, whereas the train would take getting on for double that, then another 15mins walk from the Met station to the centre of Watford. The train only takes 26 mins for Chesham to Watford for the train which does this at the start of the weekday timetable. Google maps (which generally gives a good estimate in my experience) gives a driving time of ~30mins for town center - town center for the same journey. The walk from Watford Met to the town center is a problem, until the Croxley link opens, but for people using public transport there is a good bus service from Croxley LU station into Watford.
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Post by aldenham on Dec 26, 2011 10:15:45 GMT
This still doesn't alter the fact that both branches exist to get people into and out of London. I wonder how keen TfL would be at providing a service that doesn't serve any stations in Greater London!
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Post by suncloud on Dec 26, 2011 20:04:07 GMT
You know what a Watford-Chesham service would have been very useful to me... on about 8 occasions in my life... although in fairness it would also stop at chalfont which would have saved me a change at Moor Park on many many more occasions... However I recognise that I was not following a typical commuter route so was happy I could get to within 5 miles of my workplace of the time at all by public transport...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2011 22:56:31 GMT
Looks nice and clean.
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Post by metrailway on Dec 28, 2011 15:18:43 GMT
If a regular Watford - Chesham service was ever to run (after the Croxley link was finished), I would say the main flow of passengers would not be to/from Chesham but to/from Ricky instead. As Bengley has said above, the main benefit for Chesham passengers would be reliability, as it is less exposed to any problems occurring in the city.
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Post by citysig on Jan 12, 2012 17:11:29 GMT
The "Last Ever" (and we mean it this time ) Chesham Shuttle service will be seen on the weekend of 18th/19th February. After this date, it will never work again. Honest ;D
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Post by alfie on Jan 12, 2012 17:17:41 GMT
Seems legit Thanks MetControl.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2012 20:54:12 GMT
The "Last Ever" (and we mean it this time ) Chesham Shuttle service will be seen on the weekend of 18th/19th February. After this date, it will never work again. Honest ;D When will it become 100% impossible to bring it back?
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Post by superteacher on Jan 12, 2012 21:04:55 GMT
The "Last Ever" (and we mean it this time ) Chesham Shuttle service will be seen on the weekend of 18th/19th February. After this date, it will never work again. Honest ;D When will it become 100% impossible to bring it back? Either: When there are no double ended 4 car A stock units left, or When they decommision the bay platform.
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