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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 10:50:51 GMT
Hi All,
I work for LU as a Duty Manager and last year our grade was slightly split up. It's got me wondering about how the operational management was set up in previous years. Although I joined LU only a few years ago I was fortunate enough to work with people who joined in the very late 1960s or early 70s (most of whom have since left on VS or retired) who talk of Area Managers and Running SMs, but on old threads here I see references to Divisional Inspectors and Traffic Managers and so on.
Could those who know a bit more about this please explain how it worked in the old LT days?
Many thanks in advance!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 12:16:58 GMT
From my recollection in the mid 80s, the structure station side which had I believe been pretty much unchanged for several decades, went something like this (I am sure someone will correct me if my memory has failed!). Perhaps best to list all grades from the ground up;
Railmen (platform duties, light cleaning), Leading Railmen (ticket Collectors, liftmen etc), Booking Clerks (several grades), Station Foremen A/B/C, (A being highest grade) (inc local/small station management, plus booking on crews at depots like White City, running the excess ticket office window at Bond Street, emergency signalman), Station Inspector 1 / 2, Station Manager (there was also the peculiar grade of Station manager – Fireman, who went round checking on fire appliances), Group Manager (responsible for stations & train crews at depot locations), Area Managers, Traffic Managers. From Station Manager and above Trains and Stations were pretty much jointly managed.
However after the Kings Cross fire, the system was reorganised from the Station Manager grade upwards to look like this: Stations - Duty Station Manager, Group Station Manager, Business Manager, General Manager, Directors etc..
Trains (from recollection!) Duty Crew Manager (booked on crews), Duty Train manager (part of former Area Managers role but solely trains), Train Crew Manager (same grade at GSM but dealt with DCM/drivers & Guards), Duty Operations Manager, Service Control Manager (1 per line mainly responsible for Signalmen, Line Controllers and DOMs), Train Service Manager, then General Manger, Directors, etc.
There was also Revenue Control (post Kings Cross fire) which went something like; TTI/RCI (TTI = Travelling Ticket Inspector old grade which carried over for while), Duty Revenue Control Manager, RCM (Revenue Control Manager –one per line), from there the reporting line was via the Business Manager.
The reorganisation in 1989 as a result of the Kings Cross fire introduced Centurion Management. Company Plan sometime in the early 90’s dealt with all roles below Duty Manager. The role of Railman disappeared shortly before the 1989 reorganisation as Cleaning activities were contracted out.
Perhaps one good thing that came out of the 1989 reorganisation was the decision to recruit and promote on ability not longevity. At the time I was working as a trainee Railway instructor at RTC and had the opertunity to apply for the DSM role. Previously you needed 20 plus years to get to into management. The fast route was via RTC where you did 5 years as instructor then had the option subject to suitability to apply for an Area Managers job.
Under Company Plan - Leading Railmen generally transferred to the role of station assistant. However the grades above that were subject to much discussion between LUL and the Unions. Unfortunately in a missed opportunity, a large number of Station Foreman of many years experience found themselves in the Ticket Office, while Booking Clerks with many years experience in the ticket office found themselves regraded as Station Supervisors. A total role reversal which caused a great deal of friction between the various grades and LUL management.
Thats about all I can remember!
Dean
Mod comment- 2nd erroneous post deleted.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 13:07:11 GMT
Sorry didn’t mean to post twice! My PC gave me the impression the first one had not been posted.
Also forgot to mention that the Station Inspector role was also absorbed into the role of Station Supervisor.
The Booking Clerk grades were particularly mysterious. By and large there was a Berlin Wall between Station staff and booking Clerks. Each Station was graded due to difficulty or volume of sales. So you had various grades of Booking Clerk. You also had various grades of Relief Booking Clerks who covered any location at or below their grade, so a RBC2 would cover stations listed as 2 or below. However I seem to recall we could offer them higher grade working subject to agreement. The Relief clerks covered sickness and so on. There was about three grades RBC1, 2, 3. But for Rest Days you had Rest Day Cover Clerks who worked a fixed rota around a group of similarly matched stations. However for Leave Cover you also had Leave Cover Clerks (LCC1, 2, 3). When they were “spare” you had a number of restrictions on how you could deploy these staff. Each grade had its own rules and you had to adhere to them.
Prior to UTS, all clerks used a fixed pot system where no clerk was individually responsible for debits and credits. Of course if a station had a bad reputation for debits, then certain clerks would want to steer a wide berth through fear of association. Likewise Clerks often complained about “outsiders” who they believed were responsible for bad debits. UTS generally cleared this away. But there was still pockets of trouble where certain ticket offices had difficulties in achieving a dead balance.
To manage all these staff you had a Chief Clerk who had a similar role to the Station Manager.
Dean
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 15:18:49 GMT
Divisional Inspectors became Area Managers 3/1/72 until the Company Plan in the early-1990s blew it all to pieces. DIs/AMs did both trains and stations without a second thought - it was their job. Then with Company Plan we had Duty Station Managers, Duty Train Managers and Duty Crew Managers - and never the twain then met!
Also from 3/1/72, Station Masters and Yard Masters became Station Managers and Yard Managers. Those responsible for train crews had the appendage (Running). Yard Masters were at locations which had no 'stations' to manage, e.g. Upminster, Barking, West Ruislip, which stations were then BR managed locations. The LT Yard Master/Manager was responsible for train crews only.
The Operating Assistant became Traffic Manager (also from 3/1/72), then Duty Operations Manager and is now Service Manager (I think).
Back in the 'good old days' (to me at least), Managers never existed until 1972 - we had Divisional Superintendents (and their Assistant grades), Depot Engineers, etc.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 27, 2011 19:12:38 GMT
I can recall that there was once a yardmaster at South Harrow Back in the even dimmer and distant, there was even a Yardmaster at Elephant on the Lakerboo.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 9:24:55 GMT
Divisional Inspectors became Area Managers 3/1/72 until the Company Plan in the early-1990s blew it all to pieces. DIs/AMs did both trains and stations without a second thought - it was their job. Then with Company Plan we had Duty Station Managers, Duty Train Managers and Duty Crew Managers - and never the twain then met! Indeed even until last year we still had a split between Duty Station Managers and Duty Manager (Trains). Now the grades are Duty Train Staff Manager (rather like the old DCM) and Train Operations Standards Managers in the depots and Duty Reliability Managers (of which I am one, in theory we are like an old Area Manager because we are supposed to cover stations and trains but in reality 95% of our job is trains based). Also the DSMs are still around in slightly reduced numbers. Why did the company decide to split the trains and stations management? The Operating Assistant became Traffic Manager (also from 3/1/72), then Duty Operations Manager and is now Service Manager (I think). Where the Traffic Managers 'mobile', as the Service Managers now very rarely leave their office in the Control Room? Back in the 'good old days' (to me at least), Managers never existed until 1972 - we had Divisional Superintendents (and their Assistant grades), Depot Engineers, etc. As you can see by the job titles above it is getting ever more daft, I would be happy to bring back old style titles! It will get worse with the Network Incident Response Managers starting in a few months time. |
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Nov 28, 2011 10:12:01 GMT
Sorry didn’t mean to post twice! My PC gave me the impression the first one had not been posted. Also forgot to mention that the Station Inspector role was also absorbed into the role of Station Supervisor. The Booking Clerk grades were particularly mysterious. By and large there was a Berlin Wall between Station staff and booking Clerks. Each Station was graded due to difficulty or volume of sales. So you had various grades of Booking Clerk. You also had various grades of Relief Booking Clerks who covered any location at or below their grade, so a RBC2 would cover stations listed as 2 or below. However I seem to recall we could offer them higher grade working subject to agreement. The Relief clerks covered sickness and so on. There was about three grades RBC1, 2, 3. But for Rest Days you had Rest Day Cover Clerks who worked a fixed rota around a group of similarly matched stations. However for Leave Cover you also had Leave Cover Clerks (LCC1, 2, 3). When they were “spare” you had a number of restrictions on how you could deploy these staff. Each grade had its own rules and you had to adhere to them. Prior to UTS, all clerks used a fixed pot system where no clerk was individually responsible for debits and credits. Of course if a station had a bad reputation for debits, then certain clerks would want to steer a wide berth through fear of association. Likewise Clerks often complained about “outsiders” who they believed were responsible for bad debits. UTS generally cleared this away. But there was still pockets of trouble where certain ticket offices had difficulties in achieving a dead balance. To manage all these staff you had a Chief Clerk who had a similar role to the Station Manager. Dean Dean I agree with you assessment of the Booking Clerk Structure but IIRC there were also Relief Clerks (Those who had knowledge and experience of operations) and Line Chief Clerks not forgetting deputy Line Chief Clerks. I always thought that there was only one grade of Relief Booking Clerk (RBC1). Those I recall were line based and could cover for instance anywhere from Amersham Aldgate plus The H&C. In reality they tended to stick to parts of lines. A friend of mine was an RBC1 and he loved covering places like Croxley and Moor Park and getting paid the RBC1 rate. When it all changed under Company Plan you get into a class I booking office as soon as you joined the combine. When I joined there was a 20 year waiting list for the same role. You can imagine what chaos ensued in some busy booking offices. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 10:12:50 GMT
How right you are! The Operating Assistants/Traffic Managers were not specifically 'mobile' but I can remember one Operating Assistant I was attached to in c.1965/66 who went out in the peaks to somewhere considered important. But it was really an office based post. However, the Traffic Manager at, say, Baker Street, wouldn't be worth his salt if something happened there and he (only 'he' those days  ) didn't get involved in some way, especially if an Area Manager was elsewhere on the patch. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 10:20:36 GMT
How did the Area Managers work, were they geographically based (and just deal with incidents on their stretch) or did they cover the whole line?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 10:37:15 GMT
Area Managers had a 'patch'. If I remember on the Met, they were at Rickmansworth, Wembley Park, Baker Street and Barbican (in the old signal cabin). Can't remember where the dividing lines were though. There was also one for the Bakerloo Line (QP-E&C), which was then part of the Met/B'loo 'Division'. On Sundays they often 'doubled up' and there was one on nights. m On the Met it was always the Wembley Park man that did the nights (usually at Baker Street), and on the District/Picc it was always the Acton Town man that did them (usually at Earl's Court).
However, the Northern/Victoria never had a night Area Manager. They did extreme shifts instead - i.e. start by 05.00 and finish after the last train had stabled. If there was a problem that ran into the night, then it was the dead late AM that had to stay.
On the Northern/Victoria Division, there were AMs at Golders Green, Finchley Central (I think, but that's going back a bit), Euston and Stockwell, and one at Highbury for the Victoria Line. It was an unwritten rule that the Stockwell AM went to Morden in the peaks to be seen to get the trains away - he was often "on the bridge" observing things.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 11:56:02 GMT
Thanks for the reply Reganorak.
Was the Bakerloo ever part of the Central line's division? I worked with an old AM later DMT who said they had about four of them across the traffic day that covered both lines (that's how I remember the conversation anyway, it was a few years ago now). He explained that they had a large 'incident book', things were phoned through from the Controller and written in to the book then the Area Managers investigated them. He didn't mention any geographical areas hence the earlier question.
Did each line look after its own affairs or were there any 'central' managers who went where they were required? I ask because we are about to have these NIRMs and I wonder if the idea has been used before.
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North End
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Post by North End on Nov 28, 2011 14:43:51 GMT
Area Managers had a 'patch'. If I remember on the Met, they were at Rickmansworth, Wembley Park, Baker Street and Barbican (in the old signal cabin). Can't remember where the dividing lines were though. There was also one for the Bakerloo Line (QP-E&C), which was then part of the Met/B'loo 'Division'. On Sundays they often 'doubled up' and there was one on nights. m On the Met it was always the Wembley Park man that did the nights (usually at Baker Street), and on the District/Picc it was always the Acton Town man that did them (usually at Earl's Court). However, the Northern/Victoria never had a night Area Manager. They did extreme shifts instead - i.e. start by 05.00 and finish after the last train had stabled. If there was a problem that ran into the night, then it was the dead late AM that had to stay. On the Northern/Victoria Division, there were AMs at Golders Green, Finchley Central (I think, but that's going back a bit), Euston and Stockwell, and one at Highbury for the Victoria Line. It was an unwritten rule that the Stockwell AM went to Morden in the peaks to be seen to get the trains away - he was often "on the bridge" observing things. How things turn full circle! Stockwell is still a base for the modern equivalent (the same office as used all those years ago, and up until recently full of fascinating old documents now sadly binned), however it is seriously frowned upon for the Stockwell manager to remain at Morden for the peak! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2011 17:25:15 GMT
First, the Central did take on the Bakerloo and became the Central/Bakerloo Division. This occurred when the Jubilee (stage I) opened back in 1979 and the Jubilee became the Metropolitan/Jubilee Division. The Central Line night Controller did indeed look after the Bakerloo on nights, but this wasn't down to personalities - it was the job. This didn't happen until after the Central Line moved from Leicester Square to Baker Street on 21/5/79. Similarly the Metropolitan looked after the Bakerloo (later Jubilee) on nights.
But also, the District also looked after the Piccadilly on nights - I did it when I was a District Line Controller from 1976. In my first few weeks 'rostered' on the District, I picked up the remnants of the Finsbury Park Fire, West Ham and Wood Green bombs, the first two occurring in the late afternoon, the last just before I came on duty.
@ North End - amazing that nobody goes 'on watch' to Morden in the peaks, but back then there were train 'crews' and they had to be 'dragged' out of the canteen. It was in the AMs interest to be there, otherwise they would have the 'extra time to reverse' report(s) to write. I suppose with OPOand only being one involved, there isn't the incentive to hang around. How things change!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 16:42:43 GMT
The Area Managers based at Oxford Circus had responsibility for the Bakerloo & Central Lines.
When I did Duty Manager Training on the Northern, I shadowed a former area manager who divided his time between both the Northern & Vic lines. So it seemed quite common back then.
Area Managers on the Central were based at Leytonstone, Oxford Circus and White City. The Traffic Manager was based at Baker Street.
Dean
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 3, 2011 15:37:23 GMT
DIs (later area managers) were based at Acton Town, Knightsbridge and Arnos Grove for the Piccadilly Line. The Acton man covered the west end of the DR too.
My recollection is that train crew depots usually had Yardmasters to cover 3 shifts and a Senior SM for the group. Yardmasters were called "Running Inspectors" on the Central and Met. They were all a grade of SM. Yes, there was one at South Harrow when they had Picc. crews there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 9:56:19 GMT
Thanks for all the replies here, I have just noticed the Fennell Report has and organisation chart on page 280 of 286 (figure 12) which shows:
General Manager Operations (two of them) then Divisional Operations Managers (four positions) then Traffic Managers (one per line on shifts) then Area Managers and Controllers (number varies per line, on shifts)
As a comparison we currently have:
Line General Manager (ten) Performance Manager (two per line) Centurion Managers (varies but at least two for stations, two for trains and one service control per line) then Service Managers (one per line on shifts) then DRMs and DSMs (varies per line). That is without DTSMs, TOSMs, DRCMs etc as they are not listed above.
Are we 'over-managered' (sorry that isn't a real word) at the present time?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 19, 2011 13:15:32 GMT
Well thats a question and a half! Will be interesting to see what current staff say, if they feel they can.
Going through my papers, I've come across a copy of the 'Promotion, transfer & redundancy arrangements' for supervisory, booking office & conciliation grades employed in the Traffic Division of the Railway Operations Department, 9th March, 1981. Its a reprint from '88, but it is noted there aren't many that revisions contained within. Thin pink book if anyone can remember it? No Johnston anywhere in it, nor in the roundel on the front...
Would the organisational chart be of any interest here? Or is the period too late
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2011 14:10:07 GMT
I can remember when the Underground was reorganised by Denis Tunnicliffe from (four) "Divisions" into (ten) "Lines" (c.1988/89), the East London Line had far more "managers" than the five trains that it then ran!! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2011 17:04:40 GMT
Yes please do post it if you can Ben. Anything is interesting!
Thanks
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) didn't get involved in some way, especially if an Area Manager was elsewhere on the patch.
