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Post by oe on Nov 18, 2011 12:51:55 GMT
I have a purely hypothetical question! How would the new trains, to be housed at Aldenham depot, have been delivered? I understand they were built in Birmingham so how would they have been transported? Working as I do on the site of what would have been the depot my mind often throws up such queries and I wonder how my theories relate to what would have been the reality of it all. Any answers appreciated.
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Post by phillw48 on Nov 18, 2011 13:31:19 GMT
The 1938 stock was delivered by rail. There is a photo somewhere of it being delivered behind a match wagon converted from an open goods wagon.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 18, 2011 13:42:52 GMT
I've seen a picture of the 38 stock en route via Berkhamstead, which would indicate a delivery via the Bakerloo.
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Post by ruislip on Nov 18, 2011 16:46:18 GMT
I've seen a picture of the 38 stock en route via Berkhamstead, which would indicate a delivery via the Bakerloo. I wonder if that's a picture I saw in one of Capital Transport line histories (either Bakerloo or Northern).
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 18, 2011 18:23:02 GMT
I've seen a picture of the 38 stock en route via Berkhamstead, which would indicate a delivery via the Bakerloo. I wonder if that's a picture I saw in one of Capital Transport line histories (either Bakerloo or Northern). TP's book on the 38 Stock was where I found it first.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2011 19:35:11 GMT
Mostly delivered to Lillie Bridge (via the LMS as photographed at Berkhamsted, turn right at Willesden), thence to Ealing Common, thence to Golders Green. The traffic Circulars of the period show regular moves between EC and GG.
Perhaps TP will confirm this please.
On the basis that the Bushey Heath extension was to have been the last to open, then much of the 1938 Stock would have been delivered by then, with depot access a little before public opening. I would imagine that there would have been suitable road access to a brand new depot effectively in the middle of nowhere.
By the end of 1940, the deliveries had almost dried up by then, with only 14 cars delivered in 1941. The remaining 27 cars arrived in 1946-47. I have a photo of the last car to be delivered, which is at Princes Risborough, which suggests an alternative delivery route.
The official records show 13 of the post-war-delivered cars arriving at Hammersmith (another delivery conundrum?).
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Post by oe on Nov 18, 2011 20:50:36 GMT
Thank you chaps that clears up a few things in my head. So I take it the stock destined for Aldenham would have been stored at Golders Green until the depot opened.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2011 22:03:36 GMT
Stored "somewhere" might be more appropriate, bearing in mind Golders Green is a very cramped depot site with just one entry/exit.
As an aside, the Pre-1938 Stock displaced from the Northern for the Northern City was stored in the sidings at Stanmore until required.
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Post by phillw48 on Nov 18, 2011 23:02:30 GMT
IIRC a lot of the pre 1938 stock was parked in the open for several years and had to be refurbished after the war. The 38 stock was intended for the Central line but went to the Northern instead.
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 19, 2011 2:55:39 GMT
The 38 stock was intended for the Central line but went to the Northern instead. ...are you quite sure about that? AFAIK, they were ordered specifically for the Northern to both remove the need for 9-car trains and to cater for it's extensions to Bushey Heath and High Barnet. The Central Line didn't get enlarged and converted to the standard electrification until 1940...
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Post by redsetter on Nov 19, 2011 7:56:24 GMT
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 19, 2011 10:52:55 GMT
...'tis a great book. One of my favourites - probably due to a childhood obsession with Brockley Hill's remains...but still
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 19, 2011 12:14:54 GMT
The 38 stock was intended for the Central line but went to the Northern instead. ...are you quite sure about that? AFAIK, they were ordered specifically for the Northern to both remove the need for 9-car trains and to cater for it's extensions to Bushey Heath and High Barnet. The Central Line didn't get enlarged and converted to the standard electrification until 1940... The life-expiry of the Central's original 1903 stock was one iof the factors that triggered the order for the 1938 stock, although the Central actually got hand-me-downs from other lines, including the Northern. 1935 stock did work on the Central, with ocasional deputisation by 1938 stock
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 19, 2011 13:31:00 GMT
There is another (brand new) book out on this subject too - check the main website for details. I think I have part of the answer for Aldenham - take a look at this picture: Clicky; you will note that the track in the bottom right hand corner of the shot debouches onto the road: this plan dates from 1946, so is long after the delivery of the 1938 stock - the 1938 plan Clicky doesn't show the road track, but does show the relationship with the Watford Way. Therefore, I think we're in the realms of via the Bakerloo and Willseden to Ealing Common; Ealing Common onto the Picc and then up onto the Morden-Edgware at KX.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2011 13:44:00 GMT
The (flat fronted) 1935 Stock did indeed work on the Central, firstly 1950-54 (Loughton - Epping), and then 1957 until withdrawn in late-1966 (Epping - Ongar). Of course, they also worked Hainault - Woodford, especially on transfer trips to and from Hainault depot. The only 1938 Stock to deputise on the Central was 10177-012265-11177 from 1957 to 1960, in lieu of unit 10011/11011 which was a test train during that time. In addition, Pre-1938 Stock was no stranger to any of the Central Line east end shuttles duting the reign of 1935 Stock. We exclude, of course, the 1938 Stock trailers that eventually ended up between 1960 Stock motor cars
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Post by metman on Nov 19, 2011 13:51:07 GMT
The 1938 stock was certainly not intended for the Central. Like today, capacity was required on the Northern, Bakerloo and Central Lines. It was considered cheaper by LT to extend the fewer Central Line platforms to 8 cars and then use 8 car standard stock trains from the Bakerloo/Northern than to try and extend all the Northern and Bakerloo Line platforms. By using 1938 stock which didn't have the equipment compartments behind the driving motors, capacity would be gained without extending the platforms or trains. The fact that both Central and Northern Lines were undertaking large extensions also helped.
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Post by oe on Nov 20, 2011 8:15:21 GMT
Again, thank you chaps, very informative. The fact that plans were still being drawn up in 1946 for the depot and for the siting of the terminus- still intent on reaching Watford- shows that the intention was to complete everything. ( The new book is on my wish list for xmas!)
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 20, 2011 12:22:43 GMT
Completion to Watford is a strange one to settle. Apart from the evidence of moving the platforms at Aldenham, and the layout alterations - marked up as future track in the drawings for the new book; everything else seems to be largely anecdotal, there were some strange landholdings by the LPTB in the Bushey area that tie in more with the extension from Aldenham (rather than Met or Bakerloo extensions), but I've never directly seen ANYTHING in stock planning, timetable sketches, civils, TD provision or signalling diagrams that relates to the Northern going to Watford.
Yes, all variations of the 'turned' platform arrangements at Bushey Heath had an implied bit of future-proofing at the far end, just as West Ruislip did in actuality for Denham. The difference between Denham and Watford is that there was TD provision and capacity for a third platform at WER. From memory this wasn't present in the 1944 survey (read the new book) but the next thing I'm going to loike at (after pre-1890 Festiniog and post 1910 Corris signalling) is Denham. There was a substation planned for Denham (and Ongar, but that's another story!) but not Watford.
I think the best conclusion I can draw is that Watford would have been A Good Idea, if the Bushey Heath extension and the housing plans at Elstree Hill and others had come to fruition - not everybody would want to go southbound into the Smoke.
If you want a copy, get it quick before they all vanish! ;D
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 20, 2011 13:07:30 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly, it is indeed complex. You've obviously got the "seed" of the plans from the W&ER plans, which coupled with the idea that although the old trams up the Edgware Road ended at Canon's Park (roughly synonymous with Brockley Hill station), there had been a firm intention to continue through Bushey to Watford, which shows that the demand was there (IIRC, it was blocked by protests from Stanmore landowners). Looking at the Bushey Town Planning map shown in the book you can find a route all the way to Watford though Old Bushey (Bushey Village in modern terms) that was just about available - just. The developments stemming from that document and it's ilk prevented a clear alignment being found at a later date. The buses that essentially cover the old tram route and projected axis of the railway (the 142 traditionally ran from Watford Junction through Bushey and Stanmore then down the Edgware Road to Kilburn Park Station, before the section south of Brent Cross being split off into route 32 in the 70s) are very well loaded. At peak times, sometimes you can't get on the buses despite them being double deckers on the standard ~10-minute high-frequency timetables...and the section between Bushey Heath and Watford Junction is paralleled by route 258 to Harrow, doubling the effective frequency on that section. It's a right pain when you want to get to somewhere like Colindale, Hendon Central or Camden and have to get a bus to Edgware first ...and likewise, heading the other way knowing the line should have gone all the way north to the mainline at Watford, or at the very least, just down the road from my home
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 20, 2011 13:56:52 GMT
No; quite the opposite in fact. I say that guardedly based on the large amount of unpublished New Works Plan documents that I have seen.
Admittedly I'm on my phone and away from all my research notes; but the idea of going beyond Bushey to Watford did not come into being until after c.1944, almost ten years after the genesis of the plans. Quite why the idea crept into the minds of the Board, I don't know - the further you get away from Edgware the sketchier the information becomes.
What I can tell you is that there was a plan for a 59 lever frame at Bushey Heath and a 47 lever frame at Elstree. The document that gives these frame sizes is quite late and even now I'm not sure we know the full story. We certainly know more than. 'By Tube beyond Edgware' because a whole new tranche of information is now available that Tony Beard simply did not have access to for his book.
In that 59 lever frame at Bushey, planned *after* the terminal platforms had changed alignment there was certainly passive provision for a further extension to Watford, but it was never in the original plans - if there had been then I would have seen both the TT planning and the substation plans with the air main and 600b signal main. They just don't exist (as far as I know); there is always the possibility that more drawings may come to light but I don't hold out much hope.
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Post by mrjrt on Nov 20, 2011 19:31:49 GMT
..sorry, by firm intention, I was referring to the tram company.
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