kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
|
Post by kabsonline on Nov 12, 2011 15:49:18 GMT
Hi All Some questions about the District and the D Stock: 1) This may come across as a silly question but why does the District go to Edgware Road, considering the D Stock is unable to run this route? Surely it would be more sensible to run these services as Circle Line or H&C Line trains? 2) When designing the D Stock, why did they not take into account the Edgware Road branch station platform lengths? 3) Considering the D Stock is relatively new, what is the point in replacing them? Would it not be better to replace the Bakerloo or Piccadilly Line trains first? 4) Finally I read somewhere that for a couple of years the D Stock ran as 3 car units on the ELL. Does anybody have any pictures of this or further information? Thanks for your help! kabsonline  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2011 16:05:04 GMT
Hi All Some questions about the District and the D Stock: 1) This may come across as a silly question but why does the District go to Edgware Road, considering the D Stock is unable to run this route? Surely it would be more sensible to run these services as Circle Line or H&C Line trains? 2) When designing the D Stock, why did they not take into account the Edgware Road branch station platform lengths? 3) Considering the D Stock is relatively new, what is the point in replacing them? Would it not be better to replace the Bakerloo or Piccadilly Line trains first? 4) Finally I read somewhere that for a couple of years the D Stock ran as 3 car units on the ELL. Does anybody have any pictures of this or further information? Thanks for your help! kabsonline About Number 2: Those platforms were built Before the D Stock was introduced and I'm not sure if this is true  but the District might have needed more Capacity so thus require longer trains . They might have ordered C stock because it might have been cheaper to order the same kind of stock rather than make a new type of stock solely for it or extending the platforms and using the smae trains. Please Correct Me if there are any Mistakes  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris W on Nov 12, 2011 16:26:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 12, 2011 16:55:50 GMT
1: Platforms north of HSK are too short for regular D78 stock (it would either have required less cars - or selective door opening on an entire carriage), thus an additional batch of C stock was ordered.
2: Probably as jibran said. There's also probably not enough room in that area for platform extensions, without widening tunnels etc.
3: Because someone decided that it would be smart to run the entire subsurface network on one stock... Not sure who, but I believe his name starts with a 'B' and ends with 'oris Johnson'.
4: Chris W. The D stock on the ELL was used to allow the A stock to be converted to OPO, which the reduced District service levels allowed. (Actually, the D stock seems the perfect ELL stock to me...)
|
|
kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
|
Post by kabsonline on Nov 12, 2011 16:57:22 GMT
Thanks. good pictures! With question 2, why keep the distinction of it being the district line? Why not put it under the circle or H&C line if you see what I mean?
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 12, 2011 17:06:22 GMT
Thanks. good pictures! With question 2, why keep the distinction of it being the district line? Why not put it under the circle or H&C line if you see what I mean? H&C: improperly aligned junction District: mostly historical reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 12, 2011 18:11:33 GMT
t is an odd anomaly though. The western side of the Circle (i.e from Praed street Junction to South Kensington) was built by the Metropolitan, not the MDR, and it was not until 1926 that the District ran services (other than its share of the Circle Line) beyond High St Ken. So historically, the Wimbleware is Met north of High Street Ken, and District south thereof. The Met's services have now been split into four line colours - main line, H&C, Circle and ELL - arguably it is time the District had two - (three if you count the Deep Level District, aka Piccadilly Line).
I don't think we can pin the S stock project on BoJo - he's only been in office since 2008 - there were mockups in existence by then.
|
|
kabsonline
Best SSL Train: S Stock Best Tube Train: 92 Stock
Posts: 686
|
Post by kabsonline on Nov 12, 2011 19:11:16 GMT
Why not just have the circle line running on the western side of it? And if you need more trains to supplement the service you could split the H&C into two branches at Edgware Road. One to Hammersmith and one to Earls Court/High Street Ken (going onto something that should be in another section, sorry ) |
|
|
|
Post by causton on Nov 13, 2011 1:59:07 GMT
Last unrelated post: H+C into 2 western branches, 1 to Hammersmith, one to Kensington Olympia via Earls Court  Never realised the D stock was used on the ELL - very weird pictures!  |
|
Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
|
Post by Oracle on Nov 13, 2011 9:50:09 GMT
A complete train D78 Stock of course ran down the ELL on the Metroliner tour of September 1980.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Nov 13, 2011 10:11:52 GMT
The S stock project was in consideration from the early 2000s. I remember having a conversation with an engineer in 2002 and LUL were considering generic stock then.
The C77 stock had been introduced on the District Edgware Road service to replace the CO/CP stock in 1977-78 and was designed to overcome the short platforms. When the CO/CP stock was running the Hammersmith and City and Circle Lines, it was also used on Wimbleware service too. Maintainance was carried out and Hammermith. The C69/77 stock utimately continued this practice and I doubt there was any reason to change it.
LT then had a free resign to design the new D stock without constraints. Savings could be made (like on the Piccadilly) with 6 longers cars rather than 7 shorter ones which saved on weight and running gear. The rest is history.....
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 13, 2011 12:55:22 GMT
A complete train D78 Stock of course ran down the ELL on the Metroliner tour of September 1980. When we used to take the D Stock from Ealing Common to Aldgate East - thence to New Cross, they were always 6-cars (2x double-enders). |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Nov 13, 2011 15:21:13 GMT
And I think the A stock was normally run as an 8 car train with two double enders.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 13, 2011 17:43:14 GMT
How can that be accomplished on the ELL if the platforms only have room for 3 cars? (last time I checked)
|
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 13, 2011 18:06:09 GMT
Very easily, as the stock transfers were always out-of-service.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2011 18:22:30 GMT
How can that be accomplished on the ELL if the platforms only have room for 3 cars? (last time I checked) Present ELL trains are 4 cars. So were the in-service A Stock when they were about. |
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Nov 13, 2011 18:35:04 GMT
And in the past 5 and 6 car trains were run, although the rear doors had to be cut out at Wapping and Rotherhithe! The CO/CP stock ran in 5 car formations until 1974.
|
|
|
|
Post by abe on Nov 14, 2011 10:13:26 GMT
ELL platforms were/are four cars long, not three.
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
|
Post by metman on Nov 14, 2011 20:53:52 GMT
They are certainly are four cars long but that is for National Rail stock which is longer than Underground stock. Perhaps someone can compare the length of a 4 car A stock with a Class 378 Capitalstar?
|
|
|
|
Post by edwin on Nov 15, 2011 0:14:04 GMT
A Stock: 16m per car
Class 378: 20m per car
And people need to remember the D Stock has the longer type of car at 18m per car.
|
|
|
|
Post by ruislip on Nov 17, 2011 5:51:01 GMT
Were those 1938 stock trains also used on other lines when they weren't used on the ELL? I notice one of the car maps belonging to another line. |
|
|
|
Post by suncloud on Nov 23, 2011 0:14:58 GMT
As commented the decisions to dispose of the D stock are from before Boris... But it is a sensible move in the grand scheme of things... The SSL project standardises stock (saving money in bulk purchasing and common parts/servicing etc), but more importantly the S stock are designed to work in ATO with new signalling to be rolled out.
D stocks will be disposed of before their designed life span, but not by that many years as they will be replaced last. There have been rumours of reuse elsewhere, but I suspect these won't happen.
|
|
pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
Posts: 439
|
Post by pitdiver on Nov 23, 2011 14:34:29 GMT
Where could the D stock be used. Somewhere in the UK?
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 23, 2011 15:26:56 GMT
Where could the D stock be used. Somewhere in the UK? Where in the UK? [evil]maybe on the overground[/evil] |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 23, 2011 20:24:59 GMT
There is a proposal to use them on the Leeds - Harrogate -York line. As this would not be an extension of an existing live rail scheme, it would have to be bottom-contact for H&S reasons (like the DLR). Frankly I can see so many problems with this, it would be easier and cheaper to wire the line for 25kV
1. both ends of the line, and the nearest maintenance depot, are already wired for 25kV
2. signalling will need to be immunised against dc as well as ac - this means changing all the track circuits in the complex layouts at Leeds and York
3. if you make the route isolated from the NR network, a new maintenance depot will be needed. It will also spell the end of any direct Harrogate - London service
4. wiring Bramhope Tunnel shouldn't be difficult - if you want a really cheap solution, try singling through the tunnel.
5. the aesthetics of Knaresborough viaduct needn't suffer - look at the Royal Border Bridge to see what can be done.
6. the good burghers of Harrogate and Knaresborough are sued to trains with toilets. Fitting them to D stock would not be easy!
Perhaps we could see D stock on the Goblin instead!
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 23, 2011 20:41:35 GMT
Goblin with electricity. Unlikely. Why would you wire a tunnel? Just make the train go through it at full speed >.>
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Nov 23, 2011 21:07:06 GMT
Goblin with electricity. Unlikely. Why would you wire a tunnel? Just make the train go through it at full speed >.> If you were going to use D stock you wouldn't be using catenary.... |
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 23, 2011 21:20:29 GMT
Was talking about multiple things.. also, D stock would mean either fourth rail, or, as Network Rail likes it; 3rd rail only.
|
|
|
|
Post by v52gc on Nov 23, 2011 22:44:40 GMT
Was talking about multiple things.. also, D stock would mean either fourth rail, or, as Network Rail likes it; 3rd rail only. As Norbitonflyer said, bottom contact third rail |
|
|
|
Post by underground2010 on Nov 25, 2011 2:26:45 GMT
There is a proposal to use them on the Leeds - Harrogate -York line. As this would not be an extension of an existing live rail scheme, it would have to be bottom-contact for H&S reasons (like the DLR). Frankly I can see so many problems with this, it would be easier and cheaper to wire the line for 25kV 1. both ends of the line, and the nearest maintenance depot, are already wired for 25kV 2. signalling will need to be immunised against dc as well as ac - this means changing all the track circuits in the complex layouts at Leeds and York 3. if you make the route isolated from the NR network, a new maintenance depot will be needed. It will also spell the end of any direct Harrogate - London service 4. wiring Bramhope Tunnel shouldn't be difficult - if you want a really cheap solution, try singling through the tunnel. 5. the aesthetics of Knaresborough viaduct needn't suffer - look at the Royal Border Bridge to see what can be done. 6. the good burghers of Harrogate and Knaresborough are sued to trains with toilets. Fitting them to D stock would not be easy! Perhaps we could see D stock on the Goblin instead! That's interesting, when I looked it up, some railway in Spain I believe wanted to use them for one of their lines. If they stay in this country, we won't miss them as we can always take a trip to Leeds to ride one |
|
but the District might have needed more Capacity so thus require longer trains 
