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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 5:39:36 GMT
As you probably know, a couple of Crossrail stations are going to be connected to more than one London Underground Station-Farringdon Crossrail station will be connected Farringdon and Barbican LU stations, and Liverpool Street Crossrail station will be connected to Liverpool Street and Moorgate LU stations.
I would imagine it would be confusing for tourists because you could be in Moorgate station, go down a flight of escalators and then be in Liverpool Street station.
I know that someone is going to post that 'Bank-Monument is just like this and it's not confusing.' But there are two big differences between Bank-Monument and the Crossrail stations. The first difference is that at Bank-Monument, the stations are clearly separate, and you have to use a long walkway to get between them. At the Crossrail stations, you only have to go down a flight of escalators to be in a different station. The second difference is that no lines serve both Bank and Monument, but at the Crossrail stations which serve multiple LU stations, there are lines which serve both of the stations.
Here is an example of how confusing it could be:
A tourist has got off the Northern Line at Moorgate. They are going to Liverpool Street to get the Stansted Express. They are looking for either the Circle, Hammersmith & City or Metropolitan lines. They go down an escalator (as they are a tourist they do not know that the lines they are looking for are sub-surface) and find themself on a platform. The sign on the wall says 'Liverpool Street'. The tourist is extremely confused as they have apparently travelled one stop down the line without getting on a train or leaving the station.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 20, 2011 7:13:05 GMT
Totally agree with videomaniac29. I'm confused and I have lived and worked in London. I also have some knowledge of the geography of the London Underground. God help the tourists from outside London let alone outside of the UK.
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Post by ducatisti on Oct 20, 2011 7:50:45 GMT
You can do it already from Southwark (Jubilee) - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Waterloo underground.
I think the answer is more maps, and possiby lines in the floor. But please not maps by diverging tunnels, or they will be clogged by tourists.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 8:03:05 GMT
I forgot about Waterloo-Southwark, but like Bank-Monument, they are obviously separate. You have to exit a building, walk over a bridge, walk along a platform, and enter a different building. At Moorgate station, you will only have to go down an escalator to be in Liverpool Street station!
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Post by andypurk on Oct 20, 2011 8:36:24 GMT
Her is an example of how confusing it could be: A tourist has got off the Northern Line at Moorgate. They are going to Liverpool Street to get the Stansted Express. They are looking for either the Circle, Hammersmith & City or Metropolitan lines. They go down an escalator (as they are a tourist they do not know that the lines they are looking for are sub-surface) and find themself on a platform. The sign on the wall says 'Liverpool Street'. The tourist is extremely confused as they have apparently travelled one stop down the line without getting on a train or leaving the station. If the tourist doesn't know which platform they need at Moorgate then why are they just going down a random escalator? In any case, the walk won't be much longer than many other possible interchanges, such as the step-free route from the Victoria line to St. Pancras Eurostar. There are several other places around the world where you can walk from one station to another underground, via a platform, including several on the Paris Metro / RER (e.g. the St. Lazare complex or Chatelet-les Halle) and where signage is much worse than on TfL stations. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 8:44:25 GMT
If the tourist doesn't know which platform they need at Moorgate then why are they just going down a random escalator? I've seen tourists do a lot more unusual things on the London Underground than just going down a random escalator.... But the escalators to the Crossrail platforms will probably have signage above them saying something like 'Liverpool Street - Crossrail', and the tourist would follow the signs because they say Liverpool Street which is where the tourist needs to go. |
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Post by andypurk on Oct 20, 2011 9:11:52 GMT
If the tourist doesn't know which platform they need at Moorgate then why are they just going down a random escalator? I've seen tourists do a lot more unusual things on the London Underground than just going down a random escalator.... But the escalators to the Crossrail platforms will probably have signage above them saying something like 'Liverpool Street - Crossrail', and the tourist would follow the signs because they say Liverpool Street which is where the tourist needs to go. Why would the signs even mention Liverpool Street? Surely any signage will just say Crossrail with a map. Like at Bank, where the signs generally have just the Circle / District lines mentioned without Monument. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 9:23:58 GMT
Possibly, but at Bank-Monument all of the lines are either LU or DLR. Crossrail is completely different from LU so I think that there would be signs saying 'Crossrail-Liverpool Street'.
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 20, 2011 11:31:04 GMT
There seems to be no common sense these days, almost everyone wants to be held by the hand and thinks everyone else does too. <FB> I like this very much!</FB> British Humans are now regarded as being incapable of negotiating a transport system; and every transport system is a disaster waiting to happen! |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 20, 2011 11:57:58 GMT
Meh, I didn't use the Stansted Express anyway, Eurostar ftw!
For CR, signage is going to need some updating. For instance, a proper National Rail sign will do.
(Can they also do Waterloo then while they're at it? Waterloo mentions the opening of the London Eye in late 1999 - which was 12 years ago)
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 20, 2011 12:57:15 GMT
@ chrisvandankietc.,
You said, "For CR, signage is going to need some updating. For instance, a proper National Rail sign will do.", and whereas you are correct, and no doubt this will be given a priority, (Don't quangomeisters just love corporate identity), have you any idea just 'designing a sign' actually costs??, (and getting it approved by an overpaid committee)
I expect they could build the long overdue Park Royal interchange for the same money!!
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 20, 2011 13:17:43 GMT
@ chrisvandankietc., You said, "For CR, signage is going to need some updating. For instance, a proper National Rail sign will do.", and whereas you are correct, and no doubt this will be given a priority, (Don't quangomeisters just love corporate identity), have you any idea just 'designing a sign' actually costs??, (and getting it approved by an overpaid committee) I expect they could build the long overdue Park Royal interchange for the same money!! Is signage actually that expensive? Just one simple sign saying National Rail? |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 20, 2011 13:34:20 GMT
Yes Chris
Signage is never that easy. It will have to be designed and they will want a new logo for it. This will require a committee to decide who should design it. Then they will all want to discuss proposals. And then the colour, etc etc etc and so it will go on. You have no idea how these people work and how slowly they can work when their own money is not involved in them spending it.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 20, 2011 15:42:24 GMT
Wow, what a bureaucracy at TfL...
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Post by andypurk on Oct 20, 2011 16:34:39 GMT
Possibly, but at Bank-Monument all of the lines are either LU or DLR. Crossrail is completely different from LU so I think that there would be signs saying 'Crossrail-Liverpool Street'. In what way will the LU/Crossrail interface (both owned by TfL) at Moorgate be different from the LU/DLR interface (also both TfL systems) at Bank/Monument? Parts of the Bank/Monument complex 'belong' to different parts of TfL as will parts of the Moorgate/Liverpool Street complex in the future. As someone else as said, this connection will not be a big problem, compared to all the other tourist confusions available on the Underground. |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 20, 2011 16:53:28 GMT
Remember where the old Bakerloo Trafalgar Square station was?? And Charing Cross on the Dist/Circle??
Years ago, I remember a load of French Tourists turning up at the Trafalgar Square ticket office and they asked for 7 singles to Charing Cross! These were dutifully supplied.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 20, 2011 18:47:50 GMT
Remember where the old Bakerloo Trafalgar Square station was?? And Charing Cross on the Dist/Circle?? Years ago, I remember a load of French Tourists turning up at the Trafalgar Square ticket office and they asked for 7 singles to Charing Cross! These were dutifully supplied. Yes, yes. Trafalgar Square (Bakerloo) was combined with Strand (Northern) into Charing Cross (Bakerloo, Northern) by the Jubilee line in 1978. Charing Cross on the Circle, District, Bakerloo & Northern lines is now called 'Embankment'. (since 1978) Embankment-CX is a pretty short distance, walking is quicker. (Like LSQ-CVG)... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 5:40:33 GMT
I think that there would be no confusion if the new Crossrail stations were given the names of both the LU stations they served. ie: Farringdon-Barbican and Liverpool Street-Moorgate.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 21, 2011 7:32:52 GMT
I forgot about Waterloo-Southwark, but like Bank-Monument, they are obviously separate. You have to exit a building, walk over a bridge, walk along a platform, and enter a different building. At Moorgate station, you will only have to go down an escalator to be in Liverpool Street station! Don't understand - how are they obviuously separate? In both cases the interchange is entirely on railway property and undercover. No exiting buildings, no bridges, no intermediate platforms. At Bank - exit the Northern Line from the south end of the platform, up an escalator, and you're in Monument. Likewise arrivals at Waterloo East can use the exit at the country end and finmd themeselves in Southwark station - you have to go through two barriers, but you are indoors all the way and there is no separate exit to the street between the two sets. Trafalgar Square/Strand was different - there was no interchange between them until they were combined and renamed Charing Cross. However, at the time Strand station was in the forecourt of CX mainline, whilst CX tube station was the next stop down the line! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 8:36:05 GMT
Bank-Monument and Southwark-Waterloo EAST are different to the Crossrail stations because there aren't any lines which serve both of them. Having Crossrail serve Farringdon-Barbican with a single station whilst the sub-surface lines have two separate stations, would be like having a line that has separate stations at Bank and Monument, even though they are connected.
(East is in capitals because Southwark-Waterloo would be just like the Crossrail stations except that the two stations are obviously separate because you have to walk through Waterloo East station to get between the two of them).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 11:25:14 GMT
Hello !
The same confusion (might) appear in Paris network: Auber (RER line A) is connected with Havre-Caumartin (lines 3 and 9) and with Opéra (lines 3, 7 and 8).
Special notices are shown inside line 3 trains, telling customers wanting to change for RER A in Havre-Caumartin if travelling eastwards, or in Opera if travelling westwards.
Same problem with B line in St. Michel Notre Dame between Cluny (line 10) ans St. Michel (line 4 and RER C), or with the E line in Hausmann St. Lazare.
In Paris, the average distance between adjacent metro stations used to be 500m (before long suburban extensions wer built), and RER platforms are around 220-250 m, so this situation occurs frequently!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 22, 2011 17:05:41 GMT
Seems to me the problem here isn't the fact that there are three seperate stations joined together, but that two of them share the same name.
I can understand RT and Mrfs lamenting the loss of common sense, but the same thing has happened many times for the opposite reason. When two railway stations of same name but run by different companies were both taken over by a common parent, one or both would have been renamed (mostly) to not only help internally but also to give some benefit to the passenger. Surely a similar situation exists at Canary Wharf, where there'll be three stations with the same name nowhere near each other!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2011 20:25:31 GMT
As I said before, the Crossrail stations should be called Farringdon-Barbican and Liverpool Street-Moorgate , so that people know that they are connected to two LU stations. And, all three of the Canary Wharf stations should have seperate names.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 23, 2011 8:49:22 GMT
And Heron Quays DLR should become Canary Wharf DLR because it's closer?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 9:18:16 GMT
It's longer than I care to remember when I was last in Paris, there were still Green Doors, Portillion Automatique, which as students we took great delight in holding open so everyone got on the platform, and several lines still had Sprague stock. Fun!
I digress, RER was in its infancy, but even then between certain Metro platforms and interconnected stations there were some very long passages marked 'Correspondence'. Longer even than JLE passages! We coped with 2 metro-maps between 12 of us, information was scarce, only one of us had fluent French, not me. If needs must, you sort it out and we even got to Versailles! That was by SNCF suburban, not RER, but still every 15 minutes from St Lazare!
I cannot see why you are so worried, provided that station information is adequate, and not a Canonbury job. The lack of information and facilities here is doleful and I have had to explain the difference between the bits of Overground: "Yes this train goes to Whitechapel." There's a learning curve here.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 23, 2011 10:30:05 GMT
Makes me think of that bloke on my last day in London asking if the Piccadilly train towards Heathrow stopped at Acton Town.. of course he did, didn't have a map, didn't look at line diagrams. Borrowed him my map... and that was the end of my first April 2011 tube map... (it was already a bit ripped in 2 due to heavy use  ) |
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Post by abe on Oct 27, 2011 9:32:12 GMT
And Heron Quays DLR should become Canary Wharf DLR because it's closer? No! Canary Wharf DLR is located at Canary Wharf. Why rename a station to somewhere it isn't? You'd be better off renaming the Jubilee line station as Heron Quays. But then people coming from central London, on the Jubilee line, would get confused because the Jubilee station is the station on the Jubilee line closest to Canary Wharf. This whole thread is worrying about something that really doesn't matter. As others have pointed out, other systems overseas cope just as well with worse signage and more confusing station complexes. The best example is probably Paris, where St Augustin (L9) connects to St Lazare (L3, L12, L13, L14), which connects to Haussman-St Lazare (RER E), which connects to Harve Caumartin (L3, L9), and this connects on to Auber (RER A), which finally has a connection to Opera (L3, L7, L8). The French seem to cope, as do Parisian tourists; it is being suggested that Londoners and tourists in London can't cope with three stations being linked. Bring back common sense! |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 27, 2011 9:45:57 GMT
Don't forget Châtelet being connected to Les Halles  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 1:11:58 GMT
The best example is probably Paris, where St Augustin (L9) connects to St Lazare (L3, L12, L13, L14), which connects to Haussman-St Lazare (RER E), which connects to Harve Caumartin (L3, L9), and this connects on to Auber (RER A), which finally has a connection to Opera (L3, L7, L8). The French seem to cope, as do Parisian tourists; it is being suggested that Londoners and tourists in London can't cope with three stations being linked. Bring back common sense! Ok; I agree that it isn't a MAJOR problem. But, it wouldn't be a problem at all if (as I've said before) the new Crossrail stations were given the name of both LU stations that they are connected to....Farringdon-Barbican, and Moorgate-Liverpool Street. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 8:54:44 GMT
If people are that stupid as you think they are - then double names will still confuse them.
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