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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 6:20:32 GMT
I've noticed that between Liverpool Street and Stratford, the stations are further apart than usual. Does anyone know why this is?
I'm not aware of any closed stations on the line, and the only proposed station I know of is Shoreditch High Street.
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Post by abe on Oct 19, 2011 7:29:49 GMT
The extensions to the Underground planned after the late 1920s (i.e., from the Piccadilly line northern extension onwards) all placed the stations further apart. This allowed trains to get up to higher speeds, and thus make journeys from further afield shorter (in terms of time). Frank Pick, the Underground MD, pushed hard for this, rejecting proposals for additional stations. His view was that the stations should act as focal points for the bus routes, which were also controlled by the Underground Group. This would coordinate transport and allow for better services all round.
That's the quick explanation, anyhow. Others might be able to give a more detailed reasoning, especially for the location that you mention.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 7:47:08 GMT
I am suprised that no new stations have been built to 'fill in the gaps' because the stations are so far apart that people who live about halfway between two stations would be unlikely to use the line because the stations would be so far away. But, I would imagine that building a new station on an existing line would cost a ridiculous amount of money.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 19, 2011 7:49:03 GMT
abe is correct.
It was deliberate LT policy to create a faster journey between Liverpool Street and Mile End than the Met offered, but there had to be one intermediate stop (Bethnal Green) as opposed to 3. Also, at Mile End, there's the District to take the crowds further east too. It has to be remembered that in those days, travel patterns were MUCH different and much more concentrated in the rush hours. Liverpool St Met platforms got very crowded whilst Circles and Aldgate terminators went through.
Commuters knew that it was often quicker to travel to/from Liverpool St to East Ham (for example) via the Central and change at Mile End, than getting a through service on the Met. This was encouraged by LT policy, hence no connection at Shoreditch.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 7:53:52 GMT
Would it be possible to build a new station on an existing deep-level line? I've heard of a planned station at Shoreditch High Street on the Central Line.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 19, 2011 9:50:24 GMT
Yes, in fact its been done before; Holborn wasn't contemporous with the rest of the Central line, for example.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Oct 19, 2011 12:01:51 GMT
Am I right in thinking that Pimlico was added after the Vic opened? Or was it a case of the station was reserved and opened late?
Underneath Heathrow a station-size tube was provided on the T4 loop for a station that was never built. Whilst not strictly an answer to the question, a station box was reserved in the car park in the T4 building because of delays by the GLC in agreeing for a station to be built in the T4 terminal. Of course the line was built and the station connected-into and fitted-out.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 19, 2011 14:21:50 GMT
Further to my posting of 08:49 this morning, another factor for lack of intermediate stops twixt Liverpool St & Mile End was the intensity if the extensive, high capacity trolleybus network in the area in those days. As both buses and Underground came under the same (LPTB) umbrella, and private cars were in quite insignificant numbers by todays standards, the very frequent trolleybuses easily took the bulk of the PAX. Other than Bethnal Green, there was no need for any more stops on the Central in the days when this was all planned. Planners seldom looked far into the future.
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Post by Dmitri on Oct 19, 2011 14:52:02 GMT
Would it be possible to build a new station on an existing deep-level line? Yes indeed, see Tverskaya station in Moscow. It is difficult and expensive, though.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 19, 2011 14:59:22 GMT
Am I right in thinking that Pimlico was added after the Vic opened? Or was it a case of the station was reserved and opened late? Underneath Heathrow a station-size tube was provided on the T4 loop for a station that was never built. Whilst not strictly an answer to the question, a station box was reserved in the car park in the T4 building because of delays by the GLC in agreeing for a station to be built in the Te terminal. Of course the line was built and the station connected-into and fitted-out. According to CULG, Victoria to Brixton opened in '71, and Pimlico was added in '72. Wasn't done there yet. And yes, the T4 loop is way too long :')
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 19, 2011 15:36:39 GMT
Pimlico was built in continuity with the south extension of the Vic; it was complete at platform level when the line opened. However because it was a late agreement to the scheme, the delay was taken up by the surface buildings, shafts and passage ways being fitted out.
Thats from Mike Hornes book on the Vic. Very good reading it is too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 18:46:33 GMT
Nowadays, because there are no trolleybuses, it seems that new intermediate stations are needed. But would it be worth the cost?
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 19, 2011 18:59:30 GMT
Nowadays, because there are no trolleybuses, it seems that new intermediate stations are needed. But would it be worth the cost? Maybe at Shoreditch High Street... But the cost would be astronomical, and you'd have to take curves into account, as curved platforms are not allowed anymore thanks to the Equality Act 2010...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 19:18:47 GMT
A station at Shoreditch High Street would have the added bonus of an interchange with the London Overground.
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Oct 19, 2011 19:22:06 GMT
Nowadays, because there are no trolleybuses, it seems that new intermediate stations are needed. But would it be worth the cost? Maybe at Shoreditch High Street... But the cost would be astronomical, and you'd have to take curves into account, as curved platforms are not allowed anymore thanks to the Equality Act 2010... I've heard about this "No curved platforms" rule and wonder how the (still under construction) platform extensions at Farringdon got permission? Does the law only apply to wholly new platforms/stations?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 19:31:50 GMT
My geographical map of the LU shows that, between Liverpool Street and Bethnal Green, the Central Line is on a constant curve. So, if a station was to built at Shoreditch High Street, it is likely that the tunnel would have to be realigned.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 19, 2011 19:40:32 GMT
Maybe at Shoreditch High Street... But the cost would be astronomical, and you'd have to take curves into account, as curved platforms are not allowed anymore thanks to the Equality Act 2010... I've heard about this "No curved platforms" rule and wonder how the (still under construction) platform extensions at Farringdon got permission? Does the law only apply to wholly new platforms/stations? Not sure, although I do know equality lawyers will challenge that. @videomaniac; As I was saying...
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 19, 2011 20:12:02 GMT
I suspect that this is more to do with the "Disability Act" than with the Equality Act > > No point in having a wheelchair and an enormous gap to cross getting in/out of a carriage.
Also, I suspect rules might be different for new curved platforms where the line is already extant, rather than 'new lines' where I expect legislation to be much more rigid.
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Post by plasmid on Oct 19, 2011 20:22:55 GMT
Adding another station wouldn't work. Poor noobs at Bethnal Green struggle to board a train during the morning Peak on the Westbound.
Stratford...everyone jumps off that huge National Express train and expect to all cram onto a little Central Line train and fit and when they all can't board they tut.
Mile End...they all jump off that big District Line train and expect to cram onto an already stuffed Central Line Train and tut when they can't board.
Bethnal Green...Lol. That is all. The only reason people occasionally manage to board at Bethnal Green is simply because the Central Line driver closed the doors early and missed the stampeding cattle from Stratford and Mile End. "Oh but we must run off the train and jump on the Central Line train...I don't care if there is one directly behind!"
Point is even if they did put another station in between much to the delight of about 10 people who live in the area it would inconvenience the tens of thousands by making their journey longer and busier rather than quicker and less busier.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 20:34:30 GMT
But a station at Shoreditch High Street would provide a good interchange with the London Overground.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 20:36:20 GMT
Point is even if they did put another station in between much to the delight of about 10 people who live in the area it would inconvenience the tens of thousands by making their journey longer and busier rather than quicker and less busier. Nick...........spot on. Saved me a load of typing. Cheers!
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Post by mikebuzz on Oct 19, 2011 21:16:20 GMT
Am I right in thinking that Pimlico was added after the Vic opened? Or was it a case of the station was reserved and opened late? Underneath Heathrow a station-size tube was provided on the T4 loop for a station that was never built. Whilst not strictly an answer to the question, a station box was reserved in the car park in the T4 building because of delays by the GLC in agreeing for a station to be built in the T4 terminal. Of course the line was built and the station connected-into and fitted-out. Another passive planning was Ludgate Circus on the original Fleet line extension to Fenchurch Street. This was factored into the then-under construction City Thameslink station and a new office block (complete with future station entrance). It would be used by the DLR if the extension to Charing X goes ahead. I've read that Crossrail has some passive provision for 3 future stations on its underground sections - Holborn, Limehouse and Custom House. I thought there was originally passive provision for a Shoreditch station on the Central when it was constructed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 21:25:49 GMT
What does passive provision include? Empty station tunnels?
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Post by mikebuzz on Oct 19, 2011 23:44:06 GMT
What does passive provision include? Empty station tunnels? Any of the following - station box, platform tunnels, shafts, straight sections...but evidently not in the case of Shoreditch Central line (though I think a Deep Level by-pass tunnel was planned). Could just be some sort of planning protection like safeguarding.
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Post by edwin on Oct 20, 2011 1:28:08 GMT
But a station at Shoreditch High Street would provide a good interchange with the London Overground. And would probably come after Crossrail is built, meaning that the situation at Bethnal Green may be far less of a problem. Also people are forgetting that many people will probably get off at Shoreditch to change to LOROL, as well as on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 1:48:45 GMT
A Central Line station at Shoreditch High Street would allow passengers to get from North-East London to South London without having to go through the centre the the city.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 20, 2011 7:29:21 GMT
A CentralLine stn, at Shoreditch High Street really is a no-no. Any Pax from N E London for the ELL can change at Mile End. There really is neither money nor need for such a project.
I'm also aware that things would be different if we were starting today with a blank map, - it would be there. But we are where we are. There was no need for a connection at the time of the building of the infastructure. This will not happen, and it doesn't inconvenience more than a few people by not happening, - don't forget, the ELL as part of NR is a very recent concept. Honestly, there is no need to waste money on this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 8:07:53 GMT
OK; so a Central Line station at Shoreditch High Street is not worth it at the moment. But in a decade or two, it is likely that London's CBD will have expanded and Shoreditch will have become part of Central London. When this happens, I would imagine a Central Line station at Shoreditch High Street would be worth it.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Oct 20, 2011 8:29:45 GMT
@ videomaniac
Agreed.
And as l said, if starting from scratch today, it would be done. But there was no need at the time the infrastructure was built. There was no need recently. There might be some need now, but that is catered for by Mile End-Whitechapel easy PAX interchange. That doesn't mean there won't be need at some time in the future. At the time of original build, property prices in Shoreditch etc were dirt cheap. It could have been done then for comparatively little cost, but that cost WAS unjustified, even then. Now it's megawonga. The very high cost has got to justify the benefits and at the moment l suspect it's nowhere near. EVEN IF money were an infinite resource, this would still come way down the list - even if it were on the list.
There are much better candidates for any available money such as a Park Royal interchange and a Central Line PAX link from Ruislip Gdns to the Picc towards Hillingdon - Uxbridge.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2011 8:49:04 GMT
@ castlebar:
The only thing which I don't agree with is the issue of property prices (although this would be just a scatch on the surface of the total cost of a new Central Line station at Shoreditch High Street). If a Central Line station is ever built at Shoreditch High Street it could use the existing London Overground building at street level. This would eliminate the cost of buying a property and it would create a quicker interchange for passengers.
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