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Post by Chris W on Sept 23, 2011 14:50:26 GMT
I've come across THIS ARTICLE on The Independent new website today regarding about the Canary Wharf Group's perceived plan to double the size of Canary Wharf by 2021. I know that we're still seven years away from Crossrail being operational (and a decade from this plan ever potentially coming to fruition), but I wonder if Crossrail will be able to cope into the future - what capacity for increasing services might there be. Certainly the Docklands area has already expanded greatly since the late 80's and 1990's (and would be unrecognisable from the late 1970s). DLR services have expanded with longer trains and more regular services (not to mention the Jubilee extension and City airport)... Obviously the Canary Wharf group would have number crunched the maximum capacity of transport routes/hubs, but there does come a time when capacity is reached without introducing another transport artery?!! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2011 16:14:44 GMT
Oh that's interesting. But I had to read it twice before I understood the figures fully. Canary Wharf Group own 6.9 millin sq ft of office space out of the current 15 million sq ft in the docklands. They want to add another 5 million sq ft by 2021, or a third of the current total space.
In terms of transport, yes, Docklands is an interesting case. I do think once Crossrail is fully operational, there is potential to run further trains west (not terminating at Paddington) and east via Canary Wharf thereby adding additional capacity. But the signalling and dwell times may be a limiting factor in running in excess of 24tph in rush.
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Post by ianvisits on Sept 23, 2011 16:55:54 GMT
The Wood Wharf development is a decade long project will expand the size of the docklands office space by about a third - and they have already contributed to the Crossrail funding.
It's worth noting that there is a difference between the land owned by Canary Wharf Group, and the docklands office space, so they can easily expand their holdings as announced, simply by buying up existing buildings.
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 23, 2011 18:51:25 GMT
It's also interesting that the expansion is precisely because Crossrail is going ahead, or so it it claimed. Wood wharf is on the eastern side of the Isle of Dogs so 'Canary Wharf' will be big..
Upgrading the DLR or adding a heavy rail line beside it along some of the route and adding an eastern curve at Stepney Green to directly link Stratford to Canary Wharf can add extra capacity cheaply.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2011 20:21:41 GMT
I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity. Part of the problem is that Canary Wharf is one of two branches, so won't it max out at 12tph? So what's the potential for DLR routes to be returned to heavy rail, either tube or mainline? This would provide more capacity, and improved interchange through the city. And given that most traveling from the south have to go to London Bridge or Waterloo and change, what's the potential for a new north-south line up from the Bermondsey/New Cross area, up through Docklands and on to Stratford? This could add 12tph and bolt on to Crossrail at Canary Wharf...  |
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 23, 2011 22:39:53 GMT
Hopefully doubling capacity by adding a short cheap curve between the xrail branches (might involve Stratford turn-backs) will go a long way to ease future overcrowding. What's the situation with east/south-east London depot facilities?
No stations between Stratford and Canary Wharf is gonna be pretty fast.
Tower Gateway to Poplar, All Saints to Stratford HL and Canning Town to Stratford are pretty much heavy rail, other routes could be converted I'm sure, but you won't have right-angled sections on the same route for heavy rail. 4 tracks along sections would be essential too given the spider-like branches of the DLR, and useful for straightening out alignments. You could keep the signalling etc.
The logical solution for Bermondsey/New Cross/Deptford via Canary Wharf to Stratford is to link up the LO from Clapham Junction to Surrey Canal Road with the DLR at Heron Keys (you could merge Canary and West India Quay into one station) and tunnel through under poplar to All Saints or to Crossharbour and on to All Saints. Then it's the existing route to Stratford HL. Personally I'd think about improving Stratford-All Saints-new section east of Canary Wharf-Crossharbour-Lewisham as one route and send the route from Surrey Canal via heron Quays and Poplar to Dagenham.
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Post by ianvisits on Sept 24, 2011 8:05:51 GMT
I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity. Don't forget that the Jubilee Line has two more capacity upgrades due that will add more capacity to the network. |
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Post by DWS on Sept 24, 2011 10:09:41 GMT
I can't see Crossrail coping, given that the Jubilee is already at capacity. Don't forget that the Jubilee Line has two more capacity upgrades due that will add more capacity to the network. Tell use more ? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 10:25:09 GMT
Yes but it's partly a question of whether the increase in capacity is sufficient for projected future demand, given the future developments in and around Docklands.
And it's also about building in contingency for creating more capacity if needed. And that requires that options are identified and that alignments are safeguarded.
The area of greatest need is likely to be a north-south route, and this should probably go up through Wood Wharf. Is it too late to make provision for this now, or is the development well-advanced?
From there the route could join Crossrail up to Pudding Lane, or just as easily rise on the north side of the alignment and run from Stratford up the Lea Valley.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 14:05:43 GMT
what's this fascination with upgrading the DLR to heavy rail? Would that honestly be the most cost-effective way of increasing capacity? I don't think so.
The DLR is remarkably successful as it is. The latest TfL press release states that on Thursday 15th September that 340,000 people used the DLR (a record by the way).
If you stick to the DLR model, I think the best option to increase capacity at Canary Wharf for the DLR is to keep adding to the routes. Wood Wharf will need a local station of its own to be effective. It may be the best option to have a direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour. This alone would probably give you a route on which you can run 24 tph (from Stratford to Crossharbour) and probably wouldn't be particularly expensive.
I'm sure there would be other options similar to this which could be investigated.
In other news, I use the DLR frequently, and I think that it is one of the most convenient ways to travel. The stations are close together, the interchanges are good and the service is frequent. It's also pretty reliable. Remember in the snow last year when the DLR was pretty much the only thing still running?
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Post by mrjrt on Sept 24, 2011 15:24:51 GMT
My fascination is that you'd get more capacity by using conventional vehicles. The DLR is a great tram-alike that has a valid place weaving along streets and along twisty viaducts - not as an area's primary radial form of transport.
If I had my way the LO would run from Victoria Park to Nunhead via Poplar and Greenwich, interchanging at Poplar with the District line from Tower Hill to Grays via Dagenham Dock, Custom House & Beckton. I'd also be tempted to have sent the LO under the river from Woolwich and taken over the whole line to Deptford, with the New Cross LO branch diverted to meet it, and Crossrail being given the line east.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 16:17:47 GMT
fantasy
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 24, 2011 17:59:07 GMT
what's this fascination with upgrading the DLR to heavy rail? Would that honestly be the most cost-effective way of increasing capacity? I don't think so. The DLR is remarkably successful as it is. The latest TfL press release states that on Thursday 15th September that 340,000 people used the DLR (a record by the way). If you stick to the DLR model, I think the best option to increase capacity at Canary Wharf for the DLR is to keep adding to the routes. Wood Wharf will need a local station of its own to be effective. It may be the best option to have a direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour. This alone would probably give you a route on which you can run 24 tph (from Stratford to Crossharbour) and probably wouldn't be particularly expensive. I'm sure there would be other options similar to this which could be investigated. In other news, I use the DLR frequently, and I think that it is one of the most convenient ways to travel. The stations are close together, the interchanges are good and the service is frequent. It's also pretty reliable. Remember in the snow last year when the DLR was pretty much the only thing still running? A direct link between the Stratford link and Crossharbour is planned, it would make a huge difference to the working of the DLR IMO. It's not been high priority but I reckon it will be now. I'm not disagreeing with you about the DLR, in fact I'm talking about adding route myself, but along existing route. I think a rebuild could provide continued DLR routing and some sort of parallel metro service over the core sections in the Canary Wharf vicinity and out to Canning Town to both increase capacity massively and provide longer-distance journey alternatives hopefully at a fraction of the cost of swanky new tube lines through built up areas. The branches over existing heavy rail like that to Stratford HL wouldn't need any particular modification IMO. Anyway, it's complicated and disruptive enough to be left alone here. We're certainly going off into fantasy, though the DLR has a reputation for expansion and upgrade has been mooted for the route before. It's for the RIPAS section for sure. So is an eastern curve at Stepney for Crossrail, but I really think that could be value for money and only hope someone is reading this who can put a word in with those who have influence over such matters. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2011 18:50:45 GMT
yeah, I have to admit that I also think that a direct link between the Stratford and Canary Wharf branches of Crossrail would add value.
The main problem of Crossrail as currently planned will be that the Eastern branches have restricted capacity built in.
A curve at Stepney might be against the current ethos of routing everything through Central London, but there are countless people who travel in from the GEML to Stratford, and the additional benefits of resiliency of service and capacity would be good value.
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Post by flippyff on Sept 24, 2011 19:42:08 GMT
There was talk of Wood Wharf a few years back when I worked in the area. I do believe it included an additional route for the DLR but I can't recall if it went directly north from Limeharbour/Marsh Wall across Wood Wharf and then linked up with the original Stratford route or whether it was a bit more round the houses. Looking at the Canary Wharf Group website, The dedicated Wood Wharf pages now return a 404 'Not found' error and their future projects page doesn't mention it. Simon {Edited to fix the numerous times I mis-spelt 'wharf'} |
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Post by younglulnerd on Sept 24, 2011 22:09:13 GMT
Surely, if TFL were payed to, they could put the DLR in a tunnel, say Poplar - Crossharbour, and then sell the land they use at Canary Wharf for a new tower. Also, it would be easier to create a better interchange with the Jubilee. Just an idea, probably thoroughly RIPAS.
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Post by ianvisits on Sept 25, 2011 8:35:44 GMT
Surely, if TFL were payed to, they could put the DLR in a tunnel, say Poplar - Crossharbour, and then sell the land they use at Canary Wharf for a new tower. Not really - you would have to also completely rebuild the link from as far away as Limehouse as well - but the main reason would be that you simply can't put a tower where the Canary Wharf station is. The foundations would screw around with the existing structures and I doubt the neighbours would be too keen to see their views (and the value of the office rents) affected. The DLR does very well as a "light railway" as a replacement for local bus services - people need to stop looking at it as if it is a low-cost mainline service. It never was, never will be. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 25, 2011 14:13:12 GMT
I'm sure the next review after Horizons 1-2 years ago mentioned about the Wood Wharf link, the same time as the branch from Bow Church to Hackney Wick was mooted. The plan IIRC was a simple chord along the old PLAs Island route between All Saints and Marsh Wall - due south. nothing spectacular, just an above ground DLR connection. I think it mentioned a safeguarded alignment. Tunnel and deviating further wet for canary Wharf would be more useful now, but probably impossible due to foundations. It is also unnecessary given the expansion eastwards of Canary Wharf right through the alignment of the old PLA line. I'm sure the DLR will make sure the chord can be built as part of the plans to extend Canary Wharf.
So it's a question of watch this space.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 15:13:09 GMT
The Horizons 2020 study identified a Wood Wharf link as a potential extension. The significant problem that needed to be overcome though was how to get the extension over Aspen Way and the eastbound Beckton/Woolwich line. A viaduct would need an incline that was too steep and other options would be very expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 5:53:03 GMT
it's about time that they covered Aspen Way anyway
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 26, 2011 20:40:41 GMT
The Horizons 2020 study identified a Wood Wharf link as a potential extension. The significant problem that needed to be overcome though was how to get the extension over Aspen Way and the eastbound Beckton/Woolwich line. A viaduct would need an incline that was too steep and other options would be very expensive. Would it not go under Aspen Way and rise to go over West India Dock? |
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Post by abe on Sept 29, 2011 10:58:48 GMT
Surely, if TFL were payed to, they could put the DLR in a tunnel, say Poplar - Crossharbour, and then sell the land they use at Canary Wharf for a new tower. Also, it would be easier to create a better interchange with the Jubilee. Just an idea, probably thoroughly RIPAS. I can't see this working. You can't dive down west of Poplar because of the Limehouse Link portal. Just south of Canary Wharf the tunnels would need to pass beneath the very deep Jubilee line station box, and just to the north there is now the box for Crossrail. In practical terms you'd never make this work with the alignment and gradients required - not without starting the tunnel section a lot further north. And the depth of the station would make it unattractive for passengers. |
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Post by edwin on Oct 1, 2011 1:56:38 GMT
^^Don't forget the deep foundations of all the skyscrapers in that area!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2011 14:27:30 GMT
Why can't they invest in office districts in places out in east london, or west london, or inner south london (such as peckham). If they spent the money there, not only would you get the benefit of reducing social deprivation, but you'd also stop all those commuters having to come in to an already congested fairly-central london.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2011 14:34:18 GMT
I'd suggest that the "benefit of reducing social deprivation" is not uppermost in the minds of property developers when deciding what to build, and where. I think that there is still plenty of evidence of "social deprivation" on the Isle of Dogs and in the surrounding areas.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2011 19:39:44 GMT
Totally agree, and we're exploring this over on <London Reconnections>. It deserves lots more discussion... And I agree with rhubarbrhubarb, it's not just about new lines. Transport policy has to be integrated with development and social policy. But there is little evidence of the 'trickle-down effect' in Docklands and elsewhere... |
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Post by fleetline on Nov 26, 2011 17:09:07 GMT
The irony is that once the first phase of Crossrail opens between Paddington and Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf will see 24tph in the peak. Once Stratford branch opens it will see its service cut in half to 12tph in the peak. I bet the first day the will be a lot of complains about suddenly reducing the service by half after a period of being encouraged to use it.
(Can't remember for the life of me if it's six or 12 months of Canary Wharf getting 24tph).
Also isn't there still some space in the Royal Docks for building with some unrented space (been awhile since I was last there)?
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Post by uzairjubilee on Nov 26, 2011 18:12:49 GMT
The irony is that once the first phase of Crossrail opens between Paddington and Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf will see 24tph in the peak. Once Stratford branch opens it will see its service cut in half to 12tph in the peak. I bet the first day the will be a lot of complains about suddenly reducing the service by half after a period of being encouraged to use it. Wow, that's a drastic cut! A train every 2.5 mins to one every 5 mins. |
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Post by ianvisits on Nov 26, 2011 19:36:06 GMT
The irony is that once the first phase of Crossrail opens between Paddington and Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf will see 24tph in the peak. Once Stratford branch opens it will see its service cut in half to 12tph in the peak. I bet the first day the will be a lot of complains about suddenly reducing the service by half after a period of being encouraged to use it. I am not aware of any plans to offer 24tph along the Abbey Wood line having been formalised at this early stage of the planning. |
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Post by fleetline on Nov 26, 2011 19:59:00 GMT
The irony is that once the first phase of Crossrail opens between Paddington and Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf will see 24tph in the peak. Once Stratford branch opens it will see its service cut in half to 12tph in the peak. I bet the first day the will be a lot of complains about suddenly reducing the service by half after a period of being encouraged to use it. I am not aware of any plans to offer 24tph along the Abbey Wood line having been formalised at this early stage of the planning. Can't remember where I read it but it was in a respected industry mag. Will try and dig it out when I'm home in the week. It talked about the need for Abbey Wood to be designed for reversing 24tph in high peak (with stepping back I guessing). The irony is that once the first phase of Crossrail opens between Paddington and Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf will see 24tph in the peak. Once Stratford branch opens it will see its service cut in half to 12tph in the peak. I bet the first day the will be a lot of complains about suddenly reducing the service by half after a period of being encouraged to use it. Wow, that's a drastic cut! A train every 2.5 mins to one every 5 mins. Try doing that on an London line anywhere else and there would be up roar. |
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