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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2011 17:24:11 GMT
It's strange you can find pages and pages on the Northern Heights scheme with plenty of nice drawings, but nothing on the Northern Line express tunnels.
Even though they started to build them before the war. Two of them ended up being used as bomb shelters. You can see one of the near the building design centre near Goodge Street.
I was wondering if anyone knows the detailed route they planned and if they have any drawings?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2011 19:00:12 GMT
Try London's Secret Tubes, chapter 2, pages 16-18.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2011 1:20:36 GMT
I don't think the Northern Line express tunnels were ever anything more than some vague lines drawn on a map.
Once the war was inevitable, the UK Government wanted some deep bomb shelters and sought advice from the body with the most expertise on tunnels under London, namely LT. And LT took the attitude that, if there were going to be deep-level bomb shelters in tunnel, they might as well be along the line of a possible future tube tunnel.
Although the shelters were at Underground stations, and were built by LT, they were owned by the Government.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2011 6:38:25 GMT
My understanding was that some of the tunnels were parallel to the Northern in S London. Howson's London's Underground mentions them, but my copies are in store.
It would be helpful to know again exactly where they are as there is no longer the secrecy behind uses of abandoned tube lines. Fortunately some eventually became tube lines, such as the central through Wanstead and Gants Hill. Those were linear munitions factories I recall.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2011 6:59:40 GMT
It's strange you can find pages and pages on the Northern Heights scheme with plenty of nice drawings, but nothing on the Northern Line express tunnels. Even though they started to build them before the war. Two of them ended up being used as bomb shelters. You can see one of the near the building design centre near Goodge Street. I was wondering if anyone knows the detailed route they planned and if they have any drawings? Not quite right - they started building them during the war, specifically as bomb shelters (which just happened to be in the right place to be incorporated in potential lines in the future), they have been widely covered in various Underground and underground themed books for as long as I can remember with plenty of plans, descriptions and photos available. Have a look in any decent transport bookshop and you should be able to find something on them, and I'm sure theres plenty on the web too. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2011 12:29:04 GMT
Thanks for that, there is not much info on the web other a paragragh or two. This might warrant a trip to Foyles.
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Post by abe on Sept 19, 2011 8:21:39 GMT
@ricp
The deep shelter tunnels were built beneath the platform tunnels at Clapham South, Clapham Common, Clapham North, Stockwell, Goodge Street, Camden Town, and Belsize Park. On the Central line, one was built at Chancery Lane (and became the Kingsway telephone exchange after the war). Shelters were started at Oval and St Paul's, but work was not completed. In the case of Oval this was because of excessive groundwater in the layers of sand through which the shafts were being sunk.
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Post by mrjrt on Sept 19, 2011 10:32:31 GMT
I've never been quite sure if the new tunnels were to become running tunnels or platform tunnels. There is a reasonable mix of minor and major stations, and the larger diameter that might suggest platform tunnels makes less sense when you consider so many being present at adjacent stations on the Morden branch.
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Post by JR 15secs on Sept 19, 2011 11:24:35 GMT
I think the London plan after the war has some details.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 11:40:26 GMT
I thought there were pages on these at Subterranea Britannica : |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2011 16:08:11 GMT
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Post by Deep Level on Sept 19, 2011 16:17:30 GMT
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 19, 2011 23:41:22 GMT
Here's some other interesting sites for more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_deep-level_shelterswww.nickcooper.org.uk/subterra/lu/tuaw.htmwww.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/deep_level_shelters/index.htmlwww.millhouseue.com/2011/06/clapham-deep-shelter-london.htmlThe tunnels were 16' 6" in diameter, so basically full-sized but obviously too small for platform tunnels. The tunnels were built precisely where there wouldn't be a station on the express line. The only missed station that doesn't make sense is Camden Town. As well as the 10 built (2 0n the Central) and 3 started (including Bethnal Green on the Central), Deep Level shelters were also planned at Mornington Crescent, Warren Street and Leicester Square. Another was planned for between Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street - was a station ever planned on the normal Central line line at Shoreditch which might be by-passed by an express tube? In 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' there's a couple of bits about the man who planned the express tubes - one about the original relief lines tentatively considered in the 1920's and the other about the same man having retired, drawing up more extensive concrete plans from just before the start of the war. In the same book it mentions a plan for an express Bakerloo line in the 20's too! I think the express tubes were part of LT thinking and the war was the excuse to get going on some useful aspects of the plans. However they were not necessarily as well planned as the New Works programs which is why some shelters were abandoned due to difficulties. Certainly the trips to New York with it's express and stopping lines were influential on the LTE and of course the original express tube plan was the District Deep Level tube. |
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Post by mrjrt on Sept 20, 2011 13:26:58 GMT
The tunnels were 16' 6" in diameter, so basically full-sized but obviously too small for platform tunnels. The tunnels were built precisely where there wouldn't be a station on the express line. The only missed station that doesn't make sense is Camden Town. When you say full-sized, I take you're referring to NR sized? (A-la the GN&CR) ...and I suspect Camden Town was just a bit of foreshadowing, even back then. Really, you want to split the line and interchange at Euston... That would leave something like: Edgware, Golders Green, Euston, TCR, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Kennington, Balham, Tooting Bec, Tooting Broadway, Colliers Wood, South Wimbledon, Morden In 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' there's a couple of bits about the man who planned the express tubes - one about the original relief lines tentatively considered in the 1920's and the other about the same man having retired, drawing up more extensive concrete plans from just before the start of the war. In the same book it mentions a plan for an express Bakerloo line in the 20's too! I have this book, but couldn't find the content you mentioned. Do you have page numbers? |
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 20, 2011 15:12:56 GMT
In 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' there's a couple of bits about the man who planned the express tubes - one about the original relief lines tentatively considered in the 1920's and the other about the same man having retired, drawing up more extensive concrete plans from just before the start of the war. In the same book it mentions a plan for an express Bakerloo line in the 20's too! I have this book, but couldn't find the content you mentioned. Do you have page numbers? It may be worth mentioning that although 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' is a very readable book, it is far from the complete story; and a lot of new information has come to light in recent years - in some cases altering the chronology and conclusions in that book.  |
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Post by SE13 on Sept 20, 2011 17:10:34 GMT
I have this book, but couldn't find the content you mentioned. Do you have page numbers? It may be worth mentioning that although 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' is a very readable book, it is far from the complete story; and a lot of new information has come to light in recent years - in some cases altering the chronology and conclusions in that book. There's a lot of things we don't know, a lot of things we do, but it wasn't restricted to the pre-war years, there were plans all through the 60's when money was less tight and the 70's, hardly any of which ever came to fruition. My Dad lived in Eltham and Lee through the war, and he has all manner of stories about plans through South London, locations of bomb shelters and the like. I remember the GLC talking of tube lines to Lewisham, Ladywell, and all manner of other places in South London when I was growing up. There's a unique history about London and it's connections, and I'll wager we'll never find it all out in my lifetime. |
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Post by mrjrt on Sept 20, 2011 17:59:01 GMT
It may be worth mentioning that although 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' is a very readable book, it is far from the complete story; and a lot of new information has come to light in recent years - in some cases altering the chronology and conclusions in that book. It's an area very dear to me....care to suggest any sources I can look into? (or summaries to save me some time ) |
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Post by SE13 on Sept 20, 2011 18:02:49 GMT
It may be worth mentioning that although 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' is a very readable book, it is far from the complete story; and a lot of new information has come to light in recent years - in some cases altering the chronology and conclusions in that book. It's an area very dear to me....care to suggest any sources I can look into? (or summaries to save me some time )  |
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 20, 2011 21:31:03 GMT
When you say full-sized, I take you're referring to NR sized? (A-la the GN&CR) ...and I suspect Camden Town was just a bit of foreshadowing, even back then. Really, you want to split the line and interchange at Euston... Would 16' 6" be able to take standard NR loading gauge? Whatever I avoided the direct reference! You're right about Euston of course, obviously a major interchange with a ML station. Even if there was to be no interchange at that station with 2 express Northern lines due to there being no Bank and Highgate branches on the express tube, there would still be no necessity of a Camden Town station. Indeed. Perhaps all stations Edgware-Hendon Central, with Brent having the passing loops* at least until a relief line is built and the line extended to Watford or maybe just head off via the MR to St. A or Harpenden. *According to the old "Brent Cross" post on this section last dated Feb 13 2010 the loops were commissioned in 1925 but lifted in 1937 with platform lengthening. Having become built up I guess any additional tracks to Edgware would go in tunnel, but it does make the diversion onto LMSR tracks more likely.Obviously Leicester Square was considered expendable... Sorry I tried to find the reference but couldn't and had to resort to working from memory, partly this was because I was looking in the wrong book for the later references.  I have found the reference to the 20's which is in the book (and which I mention in an old thread which I'll reference later). P.14 (I've missed out the non-relevant schemes): Note the Bakerloo express and it's proposed extension north parallel to the Met even though the Met was not part of the underground until 1933. P. 14 also mentions: a previously attempted negotiations regarding extensions to St. Albans and Luton via Hendon (the extension commencing at a point beyond Hendion Central) - and on p.15: although an initial proposal was for the line to terminate at Harpenden, there was a preference for the extension to continue to Luton. There's also reference on p.22 to the LMS considering linking the tube lines to the Midland section to Harpenden and St. Albans in 1935 and on the following page to the Traffic Advisory committee's 1936 report by JP Tomas ( who was the man behind the express tubes, see my next post) which considered a connection between the LNER and LMS at for service to St.Albans and the need for widening of the Morden-Edgware line from Finchley to Camden Town and the West End. I've found the book which had the other information, plus some more references, I'll post that next. This post is getting long enough as it is. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 20, 2011 21:55:47 GMT
When you say full-sized, I take you're referring to NR sized? (A-la the GN&CR) Would 16' 6" be able to take standard NR loading gauge? Should do - the Northern City has 16 ft tunnels and was built to take main line stock. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 20, 2011 22:24:02 GMT
I have this book, but couldn't find the content you mentioned. Do you have page numbers? It may be worth mentioning that although 'By Tube Beyond Edgware' is a very readable book, it is far from the complete story; and a lot of new information has come to light in recent years - in some cases altering the chronology and conclusions in that book. Oh well mrfs42, I'll plod on with my info anyway, hoping to be corrected by the relevant information, especially connected to JP Thomas. In an old thread (Northern Express tube, last post Nov 8, 2009) imention the references I was referring to. The wonderful London's Lost Railway's by Charles Klapper has the following information - J.P. Thomas was of course the guy who was brought out of retirement to help construct the WWII shelters as previously mentioned. Christopher Wolmar's The Subterranean Railway p.201 has: This appears to be about 1911 in the context of the book but it isn't made clear. There's also a reference on p.226 to the Picc extension proposal to Hertford, this time in 1919 - such extensions having a possible baring on express running and therefore relief tunnels/tracks. The Picc had it's express running and planned extensions after LER consolidation and beyond but did it ever get full express tube proposals like the Northern, Central and Bakerloo? In 'Underground to Everywhere' by Stephen Halliday, p.166, it mentions the LT visit to New York where express services were noted. It goes on to say: I would love to see the plans by J.P. Thomas. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Sept 20, 2011 23:02:38 GMT
More Express tube info found on internet, from the CULG site (Clive's UndergrounD Line Guides):
Victoria line:
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Post by mrjrt on Sept 21, 2011 0:55:40 GMT
Although Brent was the only station with loops, Burnt Oak, Colindale and Hendon Central all have space adjacent to the southbound line for another. Quite why the northbound wasn't deemed worthwhile given the ease of which leaving space and having a slightly longer overbridge given the virgin land the Edgware extension was built on is beyond me...
The only real obstacles would be the viaduct between Golders Green through Brent and the tunnels at Hendon. Especially with loops at every station and tube stock acceleration the line probably wouldn't have needed 3-4 tracks for the whole length to manage a very good express service.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2011 23:04:49 GMT
Wow thanks for all this. It's sad really, we came so close to an express network 60 years before we were actually going to one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2011 19:19:06 GMT
We could have had a NY subway type operation - "Morden Through Express" etc .....
A wondefull thought - when I lived in Sth Wimbledon , it was always a bit of a drag on the south end of the Northern ! - probably explains the good loadings on Thameslink from that neck of the world.
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Post by mikebuzz on Oct 2, 2011 22:47:55 GMT
We could have had a NY subway type operation - "Morden Through Express" etc ..... A wondefull thought - when I lived in Sth Wimbledon , it was always a bit of a drag on the south end of the Northern ! - probably explains the good loadings on Thameslink from that neck of the world. Yes, you could have taken the (original) Victoria line and changed at Clapham Common for the Northern line. ;D |
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