PGtrips
Ahh... don't you just love PG?
Posts: 113
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Post by PGtrips on Sept 6, 2011 13:56:06 GMT
I would be interested to know the original number of diagrams and how they were deployed by service for the 57x3 car Class 501s when introduced from 1957. As I understand it, they themselves replaced 77 Oerlikon LNWR sets and at that time the later built LMS sets were also still in use, giving a fleet of over a hundred units.
What was the maximum length of train operated - I remember the Watford - Broad St via Primrose Hill workings being 6 cars in the late 70s, but the platforms on much of the NLL were really short at that time - had they been shortened from their length of previous years and if so, was 6 cars the norm on the NLL? Would Euston-Watford have taken 9 cars?
Obviously, the services to Croxley Green, both ways and both routes of Watford -Broad St are no longer operated, but I'm still struggling to work out how all those units were used. Were the service frequencies different then?
Any info from those with historical WTTs, etc would be much appreciated.
Also, when were the earliest 501s withdrawn, did any not get painted blue, and what happened to them?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 14:06:37 GMT
Seven car trains were run for a time - can't remember when. If you PM me, when I get home after hols I'll try and find some dates. My gut reaction is that it was probably in the 1930s when the DC lines were in their heyday. In the October Underground News, there will be a summary about the DC services from a WTT discovered for 1954. Unfortunately the main line WTTS don't show rolling stock or depot working, so there must have been a separate publication with this information in - and I haven't seen it
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 17:23:08 GMT
The maximum length of train operated utilising Class 501’s was 6 cars The LMS sets were only around in passenger service until @ 1962/3 and they normally worked as 3 car units. Similar units worked on the Merseyside DC Network and ran as 2, 3 and 4 car units and there is photographic evidence to support this. Trailers cars from the Manchester & Altrincham line were transferred to the London area however this was to replaced damaged and/or unserviceable coaches. I have researched LMS Compartment formations and have not found evidence of them running as anything else other than a 3 car unit. The one exception was during the 1930’s when the GEC Compartment Stock Motor Cars was causing concern when operating on the Watford – Croxley Green and Watford to Rickmansworth Church St branches were putting an unacceptable load on the Bushey power substation. The solution was to use 9 cars of the original LNWR/London Electric Railway tube stock which the LMS had retained after its withdrawal from the Bakerloo Elephant & Castle –Watford Line however they did require some internal modifications before entering into service on the branches. Whilst they were being modified services on the 2 branches were provided by 2-car hybrid units formed Oerlikon/LMS Compartment stock. I am grateful to my good friend Douglas Stuckey for this information which is contained in his excellent and now out of print West of Watford book.
Usage of the EMU’s on the NLL lines between 1957 and 1963 was very fluid as the Class 501’s were being introduced as the Oerlikons were withdrawn. In the early 1960’s there was a reduction in the level of services on the NLL’ s which rendered the LMS Compartment stock surplus. This stock was withdrawn and stored for a short period at Verney Junction. I am afraid I do not have any WTT’s for this or any other period.
The first 2 Class 501’s were withdrawn from passenger service in 1971 unit 133 was one of them. They were transferred to the Southern for bogie trials in relation to the development of the 4 PEP units which were the prototypes for the Class 313/315/507/508 family of EMUs. They were initially allocated to Redhill depot and then Strawberry Hill, One of the DTBS was converted to Test Coach Mars later. 2 coaches were used for an experiment in an attempt to fit sliding doors in places of slam doors on compartment stock; an ambitious but somewhat doomed to fail project.
These coaches were sent for scrap in the late 1980’s after spending many years in the Strawberry Hill yard. At least one power car retained its blue with half yellow front livery to the end whist another retained the wrap around full yellow end livery to the end. There is a photo of 3 of these coaches on route to the scrap yard at Didcot 1 was just an underframe and cab (I assume this was coach used the sliding door experiment) whilst another was covered with tarpaulins as it was devoid of doors.
All Class 501’s were repainted into BR Blue livery and none were withdrawn in Green livery. Test Coach Mars was repainted in Blue and Grey livery and later gained NSE livery was fitted B4 bogies, a corridor connection at the none driving end, had doors and windows sealed/plated as well as being wired for SR EP operation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 19:28:51 GMT
The 7 car Euston-Watford workings were in the 1930s, to 1941 (extra trailers for them built 1929) - were they formed of two 3car sets with a loose trailer between?
The North London (i.e. to Richmond) services were apparently reduced from 6 cars to 3 in 1962.
On 'main line' (ac) electrification in 1965, the number of New Line services was reduced to 103 journeys per day (compared to 201 pre war)
In its heydey, the dc fleet had 4 Siemens, 76 Oerlikon and 24 GEC 3 car units, with 10 extra trailers (for 7 car trains), and 9 'tube' stock cars (3 3car units, ex LER/LNWR joint stock of 1920) for the Rickmansworth Branch.
(Info from 'Age of the Electric Train', by J C Gilham)
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Sept 7, 2011 19:17:48 GMT
Whilst I can't help with the diagrams, remember too some of the 501s were converted as battery motor cars for the GN electrification. they worked through to Moorgate via Drayton Park. I had a pair one day to Hertford North as they doubled as OLE repair units!
ISTR the sub-stations on the NLL were not strong enough for 6 car sets in the latter years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 19:34:25 GMT
The vehicle that consisted of just a cab may well have been an old 4-CEP motor coach that spent ages being stored in various places along with a couple of departmental 501 cars. It was one of a couple of 4-CEP DMBSO cars that succumbed to a firey end in the early 70s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 19:55:18 GMT
I have amassed a lot of information on Class 501's including a large collection of photos. The second batch (but not final batch) Deportment Class 501.s were as follows-
977 No Departmental No Original No In Service From Allocation 97701 DB975178/ 977362 M61136 May-74 Birkenhead 97702 DB975179/977363 M61139 May-74 Birkenhead 97703 DB975673 M61182 Jun-80 Cricklewood/Hornsey 97704 DB975674 M61183 Jun-80 Cricklewood/Hornsey 97705 DB975675 M61184 Apr-80 Cricklewood/Hornsey 97706 DB975676 M61189 May-80 Cricklewood/Hornsey 97707 DB975407 M61166 Jul-75 Hornsey 97708 DB975408 M61173 Jul-75 Hornsey 97709 DB975409 M61172 Dec-75 Hornsey 97710 DB975410 M61179 Dec-75 Hornsey
Withdrawn Jul-93 Jul-93 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95 Apr-95
Apologies for the bad formatting but it is difficult to post a table.
XF
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 20:05:17 GMT
The vehicle that consisted of just a cab may well have been an old 4-CEP motor coach that spent ages being stored in various places along with a couple of departmental 501 cars. It was one of a couple of 4-CEP DMBSO cars that succumbed to a fire end in the early 70s. Hi Glyn It was a heavily modified Class 501 DBTS and it was hooked up to a 4CEP DMBS which was part of a unit that was allocated to Strawberry Hill after a couple of coaches of the unit were burnt out Nigel
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
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Post by SE13 on Sept 9, 2011 13:33:40 GMT
Apologies for the bad formatting but it is difficult to post a table. XF This any good for you? Let me know if I made any mistakes. 977 No | Departmental No | Original No | In service from | Allocation | Withdrawn | 97701 | DB975178/977632 | M61136 | May 74 | Birkenhead | Jul 93 | 97702 | DB975179/977633 | M61139 | May 74 | Birkenhead | Jul 93 | 97703 | DB975673 | M61182 | Jun 80 | Cricklewood/Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97704 | DB975674 | M61183 | Jun 80 | Cricklewood/Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97705 | DB975675 | M61184 | Apr 80 | Cricklewood/Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97706 | DB975676 | M61189 | May 80 | Cricklewood/Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97707 | DB975407 | M61166 | Jul 75 | Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97708 | DB975408 | M61173 | Jul 75 | Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97709 | DB975409 | M61172 | Dec 75 | Hornsey | Apr 95 | 97710 | DB975410 | M61179 | Dec 75 | Hornsey | Apr 95 |
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