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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 10:54:33 GMT
I don't travel up that way too often, but yesterday the Chesham trains were running along the slow lines non stop from Harrow to Moor Park. There was an announcement at Northwood, warning passengers that trains would be passing through at speed due to operational reasons.
Why was this?
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cso
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Post by cso on Aug 3, 2011 11:02:14 GMT
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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 11:05:19 GMT
Isn't this something to do with the points just north of Harrow on the Hill? Not sure - I know that all of the Amersham and Chesham trains have been leaving from platform 1 at Harrow, but only the Amersham's have been going on the fast lines. |
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Post by setttt on Aug 3, 2011 11:10:33 GMT
The points at Harrow North Junction are adversely affected by warm weather, so when rail temperatures reach a certain level, the junction is in effect taken out of use and the "hot weather plan" is implemented whereby all Northbound fast Amershams & Cheshams run via platform 1 at Harrow, and all southbound fast services run fast via the Southbound local line Moor Pk - Harrow. As the station starters on that section have 50mph overlaps, we can run through at line speed, necessitating a warning to passengers.
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Post by knap on Aug 3, 2011 11:12:07 GMT
Depending on time of day and the Chiltern services running and the timing of Met services, sometimes Amersham & Chesham trains run north from Harrow on the slow lines fast to Moor Park to keep out of the way of a faster Chiltern service. Can then be frustrating waiting at the junction north of Moor Park for a clear track to move across the lines to get to Rickmansworth.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 3, 2011 14:05:58 GMT
Does the S stock run Fast services? All the S stocks I have seen are all station ones
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Post by superteacher on Aug 3, 2011 14:12:35 GMT
Does the S stock run Fast services? All the S stocks I have seen are all station ones S stock is currently booked to run fast Amersham services on set numbers 410 and 411. |
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Post by redsetter on Aug 3, 2011 16:23:28 GMT
someone mentioned before that chiltern's have priority,it doesn't look a good setup. the growth in the aylesbury area demands faster train times to london.perhaps it might have been better to clear the line of two operations by transferring the whole lot to london overground/underground or perhaps the now dropped scheme of crossrail.then the s stock could be utilised better for its inner london purpose.
the only downside to the latter crossrail is possible steep fare increases for some.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 16:45:20 GMT
the only downside to the latter crossrail is possible steep fare increases for some. Hasn't it already been announced that Crossrail will have normal fares and be part of the zonal system? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 17:55:42 GMT
someone mentioned before that chiltern's have priority,it doesn't look a good setup. There appears to be this great myth that Chilterns have priority and as such Mets should be diverted onto other lines to give them a clear path if there is less than 7 minutes between them. I can assure you that when I'm on they do not get prioritised in such a manner, and I don't take to it too kindly if I see this happening. The only time I will ask as signal operator to route the Chiltern first is if they are both at Harrow at the same time, as the Chiltern will run faster than the Met train, particularly as the Chiltern does not stop at Moor Park. Apart from that, as far as I'm concerned, they run as booked. |
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Post by peterc on Aug 3, 2011 19:25:18 GMT
I think the point was that LUL fares to zones 7/8/9 are much lower than corresponding National Rail fares.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 19:29:56 GMT
What will they do about Crossrail stations outside zones 1-6, what fares will they have.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 21:32:46 GMT
On saturday, watfords were using platform 3 at watford, when they normally use platform 2, and all southbound trains were using platform 4.
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Post by citysig on Aug 3, 2011 22:58:49 GMT
On saturday, watfords were using platform 3 at watford, when they normally use platform 2, and all southbound trains were using platform 4.  Watford has 4 platforms Sorry, I've tried to work out where I think you mean, but none of the platforms match up with possible candidates based on the other statements. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2011 7:01:49 GMT
I think the point was that LUL fares to zones 7/8/9 are much lower than corresponding National Rail fares. redsetter's concern that I was responding to was that there could be steep fare increases as a result of Crossrail. I can't see any journeys where price will increase as a result. Outside of the zones standard NR fares will be charged exactly as now, inside the zones standard zonal fares, so no-one needs to panic about this. There was a similar misinformation spreading about DLR fares before it opened even when it had already been announced that standard fares would be charged. With zones 7/8/9 what is the differential between National Rail and LU fares from London? If TfL decides to extend these zones from just beyond Moor Park and Harrow to cover Crossrail as well then it will be a good deal, otherwise people are no worse off. I don't imagine they'll make all of the western end of Crossrail zonal though - Reading would end up in zone 12 or 13! |
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 9:52:24 GMT
If TfL decides to extend these zones from just beyond Moor Park and Harrow to cover Crossrail as well then it will be a good deal, otherwise people are no worse off. I don't imagine they'll make all of the western end of Crossrail zonal though - Reading would end up in zone 12 or 13! I doubt the zones will be extended. The travelcard agreement only covers zones 1 to 6 and extending this would at least require the agreement of FGW and this is not likely as they would lose revenue by people gaining unlimited travel. This is one reason why Watford Junction is outside the zones. If Crossrail the Crossrail franchise is let by the DfT then TfL may well have little say in the fares outside the zones. |
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Post by mrjrt on Aug 4, 2011 11:05:05 GMT
There are plans to extend the zones already. I understand discussions have been under way to reach at least Cheshunt. As we know they also reach out to Watford Junction and Grays. It's a natural progression of the use of Oyster on National Rail. Zone 12/13 for reading would be optimistic give the situation with Watford Junction, I suspect.  |
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 11:15:13 GMT
As we know they also reach out to Watford Junction and Grays. No they do not, W and G are simply used internally by TfL. Both stations are outside the zones. |
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Aug 4, 2011 11:16:47 GMT
I think one of the main issues is the amount of "subsidy" required from the County Councils involved. Then you get a Bromley type "Fares Fare' situation where peopelat one end of a county, say Bucks, refuse to pay any subsidy for those boarding trains in Amersham. I seem to remember the Ongar branch closure was in Part because of Essex C.C.'s refusal to kick any subsidy over to LT for supporting it.
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Post by andypurk on Aug 4, 2011 12:04:17 GMT
There are plans to extend the zones already. I understand discussions have been under way to reach at least Cheshunt. As we know they also reach out to Watford Junction and Grays. But that isn't really about extending the zones, it is about Oyster acceptance. You can't buy a paper Travelcard which includes unlimited travel to Watford Junction or to Grays (you can only get Travelcards which include a return trip from Watford/Grays to the edge of the zones included in the price). However, you can buy a paper Travelcard which includes unlimited travel to Amersham/Chesham. Well, Amersham is only in zone 9 and is about the same distance as Maidenhead from zone 1, so zone 12/13 wouldn't be too far off the mark if the zones are getting wider the further out you go. |
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Post by craig on Aug 4, 2011 12:12:57 GMT
However, you can buy a paper Travelcard which includes unlimited travel to Amersham/Chesham. If the Met gets extended to Watford Junction then will this give us the unique situation where a travelcard is only valid for one return journey from Watford Junction Watford High Street even on the Met? |
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Post by mrjrt on Aug 5, 2011 10:44:36 GMT
Well, the Met line gets a lot of special subsidy due to it's history (the towns and villages of Metroland were built as dormitories for the line's commuters...so a disproportionate percentage of residents use the line - would you want to be the councillor that tried to bring in massive fare rises?). See the situation on the WCML for how quickly the zones would ratchet up without it. As for Watford Junction...of course you can get a travelcard! Go to the TfL tickets page, and search for "Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction". You'll see that a peak day travelcard is £19. Rickmansworth is roughly the equivalent of Watford Junction's distance, so either Watford Junction should be in zone 7, or Rickmansworth in zone 10....that's why I say zone 12 would be a stretch. Don't forget that some lines don't have stations in all zones, but even with just one station per zone: West Drayton: 6 Iver: 7 Langley: 8 Slough: 9 Burnham: 10 Taplow: 11 Maidenhead: 12 Twyford: 13 Reading: 14 ...and admittedly, you can't get travelcards from Grays...but that's something that could be looked into. |
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Post by abe on Aug 5, 2011 11:14:31 GMT
I didn't think that any subsidy was paid for the Met - certainly Bucks CC doesn't pay anything. That is why the fares start to rise so steeply after Moor Park. If you look at the cost per mile of a ticket it is higher in Bucks than elsewhere on the Underground.
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Post by craig on Aug 5, 2011 11:18:10 GMT
As for Watford Junction...of course you can get a travelcard! No you can't. Watford Junction is outside the zones. If you turn up at Watford Junction station and ask for a travelcard you will be given a ticket that allows unlimited journeys within the zones plus ONE return journey from Watford Junction to the zones. The fare from London to Watford is set by London Midland and any travelcard part of this ticket will only include unlimited travel within the zones. It is not a travelcard from Watford Junction to the zones. |
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Aug 5, 2011 11:24:09 GMT
@ abe
And surely the reason the Ongar branch shut was Essex's C.C.'s absolute refusal to make any contribution at all. With new housing projects, and a parkway for M11/M25 there is no doubt that keeping it open to North Weald would have been reasonable. It always comes down to money. I think the Met lines outside the GLC area was always going to be different as lots of votes would have been lost. So the result was inevitably going to be keeping it open but with a much higher "passenger contribution" per mile. (Few votes from Blake Hall)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 11:24:18 GMT
On saturday, watfords were using platform 3 at watford, when they normally use platform 2, and all southbound trains were using platform 4. Watford has 4 platforms Sorry, I've tried to work out where I think you mean, but none of the platforms match up with possible candidates based on the other statements. Sorry, I meant at Moor Park, typing error that was. |
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Post by andypurk on Aug 7, 2011 20:47:31 GMT
However, you can buy a paper Travelcard which includes unlimited travel to Amersham/Chesham. If the Met gets extended to Watford Junction then will this give us the unique situation where a travelcard is only valid for one return journey from Watford Junction Watford High Street even on the Met? Things would most likely change if the Met line got to Watford Junction, as then TfL would be the provider of the majority of services at the station (off-peak at least 4 tph Met line and 3tph London Overground compared to 5 tph LM and 1tph Southern). Fares are generally set by provider of the most services at any particular station and so some agreement would be made between TfL and the DfT plus any future LM Franchise owner. This is why Bushey was bought into the zones, as LO run one more train per hour than LM throughout the day, so LO set the fares, even though most passenger to/from London will be using the LM trains. |
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Watford has 4 platforms 
