mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 26, 2011 12:38:33 GMT
This has just popped onto my FB wall: Grade 2 listing - 16 UndergrounD stations listed today. The stations given Grade II status are: Aldwych, Belsize Park, Brent Cross, Caledonian Road, Chalk Farm, Chesham, Covent Garden, Hendon Central, Oxford Circus - originally two separate stations (on the north-west corner of Argyll St and Oxford Street, and the north-east corner of Argyll St and Oxford Street including the office above), Perivale, Redbridge, Russell Square, St John's Wood, West Acton, and Wood Green. Three other stations - Arnos Grove, Oakwood, and Sudbury Town - have been upgraded from Grade II to Grade II*. These stations were designed by the distinguished modernist architect Charles Holden, for the Piccadilly Line extension in the 1930s. |
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Post by Chris W on Jul 26, 2011 15:50:15 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 18:24:43 GMT
Just out of interest, which LT stations are grade 1?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jul 26, 2011 19:30:41 GMT
Its only the enterance to Bank, built into the Bank itself, isn't it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 20:48:12 GMT
The Bank of England entrance to Bank does form part of the Grade 1 listing - the only 'whole' station to be listed at 1 is St James's Park (except the Palmer St entrance) which is included in the 55 Listing. There are now 4 stations Listed at Grade 2* - which is often treated as Grade 1 - and they are Southgate (2010) and those upgraded today - Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Sudbury Town.
Oh - and I only found out today - Baker St's listing was extended and upgraded to 2* last year.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 10:36:23 GMT
I would imagine that this would cause huge problems during any planned refurbishments. The national network suffers similarly as Network Rail is rumoured to have more listed buildings than English Heritage! I remember back in the 80s NSE wanted to completely gut the inside of Mortimer station on the Reading to Basingstoke line, use the original gents as a ticket window and lease the rest as offices. NSE were told that that was out of the question as the bulding was listed (grade 1 I believe). They were then also told that they couldn't even paint the window frames red!
With this in mind you can see why Network Rail is fighting tooth and nail to stop the Paddington-Bristol and Settle-Carlisle lines being designated World Heritage Sites!
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Jul 27, 2011 10:51:15 GMT
Glyn . Very interesting
That means they'll have to restore Hanwell to how it used to be and re-open the southern entrance. That will cost them more than the station could ever take in revenue
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Jul 27, 2011 11:00:53 GMT
I thought the Settle - Carlisle already was  |
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mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 27, 2011 11:54:29 GMT
With this in mind you can see why Network Rail is fighting tooth and nail to stop the Paddington-Bristol and Settle-Carlisle lines being designated World Heritage Sites! IMNSHO that would really devalue the listing as a World Heritage site - how can those railway lines compare with the Semmering, [Darjeeling, Kalka - Shimla, Nilgiri] and the Rhaetian? Full list of the UNESCO sites here. I live in a World Heritage site. |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 27, 2011 16:36:15 GMT
Listing is a great way of preserving history but it really is impractical to list so many stations or so many anythings. Why should companies be hamstrung to preserve such things at vast expense?
Listing should not prevent everyday use in an everyday manner in keeping with the times and if it does then some other organisation should foot the bill for any works over and above accepted current specs for modern infrastructure.
As a preservationist myself in my own small way I have a foot in each camp but on balance I think progress should prevail except for the very best of examples which should be finitely limited in number.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jul 27, 2011 16:46:18 GMT
Surely with functional buildings like stations it would be better instead of listing them point blank, to instead mandate that any alterations are free to occur as long as they preserve the style and feeling of the period? Like at Acton Town, if instead the staff footbridge had been constructed in modernist style to match the rest of the station.
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Post by compsci on Jul 27, 2011 17:03:25 GMT
EH are getting better than they were. My college is just about to redevelop one of its buildings which is grade II listed, but has a hopelessly inefficient interior for its intended purpose of housing lots of undergraduates.
Rather than attempt to fix it, EH have cleared us to remove the roof and the entire interior, leaving only the exterior walls. We will then put a modern building in the gap.
The end result will be something that satisfies all of the reasons why the original building was listed, but that actually works. And won't leak or fall down.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 27, 2011 18:04:25 GMT
Surely with functional buildings like stations it would be better instead of listing them point blank, to instead mandate that any alterations are free to occur as long as they preserve the style and feeling of the period? Like at Acton Town, if instead the staff footbridge had been constructed in modernist style to match the rest of the station. ?? You've lost me there unless Acton Town station has had some amazing upgrade in the last 6 years! The staff footbridge is totally out of character with the rest of the station although when I was a lineman there the footbridge was very handy for nipping across to the IMR instead of taking a van and driving from Bollo House. To be honest I couldn't care how it looked as long as it was functional. In my years installing equipment all over the system I fell foul of the 'heritage' rules twice. The first time was at Sudbury Town circa 1980 when I installed the platform PA loudspeakers and ran blue 1pr/0.9 cable along the face of the buildings which had just been painted cream. Being a chargehand at the time I used the materials that I was issued with to do the job and there were no instructions about preservation or heritage given to me. I had to remove the cabling and run cream 3pr/0.9 instead, a complete waste of resources in my opinion especially as a very thin blue line looked kinda neat against all that cream! The second occasion was at Northfields where my gang spent a couple of days installing a cable to the UTS ticket office, a nice neat job, but someone noticed it and then we were told that no cables were to appear on the surface of the brickwork in what had then become a listed station so we had to take it out and rerun it across the roof where it could not be properly anchored without potentially creating a leaky roof! The last time I was on that roof it was crisscrossed with cables that were not allowed to be run through the ticket hall, a complete mess IMO when the proper way is to provide trunking or tray run which I was allowed to do between the old running SM office and switchroom in the bicycle store area off the ticket hall. I don't think the average person could care less about the surroundings as long as they are clean, neat and tidy and passengers care about the train service delivery and punctuality much more than they do about buildings, ambience etc |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 21:37:58 GMT
Listing doesn't 'pickle' a station and EH are well aware that we run a railway and so it doesn't stop change. When you think, Southgate was totally modernised including replacing most of the tiles and it was upgraded last year, not downgraded as would have happened a few years ago. Yes, it means going through a 'process' but hey, that is a fact of life. TBH, in most cases, LU had already made the decision to keep certain stations in their original style - most stations are grouped into certain architectural or historic categories by management - so Listing is in line with what LU would do anyhow. Re; how passengers react, well, listed or not LU are on a hiding to nothing if they allow slow build up of clutter etc - silly things such as ill-thought out cables and equipment - as it does give a sense of 'couldn't care less'. I for one don't want to go back to the shabbiness of decades ago. Passengers do react better to well-kept station environments - its the company's brand at stake and that does matter. You don't see a shabby Pret A Manger or M&S.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jul 28, 2011 10:17:33 GMT
With this in mind you can see why Network Rail is fighting tooth and nail to stop the Paddington-Bristol and Settle-Carlisle lines being designated World Heritage Sites! That's why the upgrade is being rushed through. Apparently if it succeeds it will be impossible to even consider putting up electrification masts and wires...... What a ridiculous world we live in! English Heritage has gone too far in its powers, just like Sustrans - a good idea hijacked by extremists. We now have old listed manor houses falling down because the planners won't allow any changes to layout etc., - and of course there is nothing in the world they CAN do to force owners to spend money, just tell them HOW to spend it. If it collapses, end of story!!! Back on topic!Mind you, if all this had happened 10-15 years ago none of the above listed stations would have been allowed gatelines in the marvellous art-deco circulation areas!! |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Jul 28, 2011 10:24:54 GMT
silly things such as ill-thought out cables and equipment - as it does give a sense of 'couldn't care less'. I for one don't want to go back to the shabbiness of decades ago. Depends on date chosen for listing - "as is" or retrospective. If the latter (and some are) then those very exposed cables are considered part of the listing. And in many cases there have been straight fights on the railway (and many better reported elsewhere) where the listing bodies have tried to prevent structural changes being insisted on due to changes in H&S. (Example of this was the TV prog about the KX mainline station redevelopment - some brilliant fights between EH and H&S - perfect example of a 'lose-lose' situation!) |
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 28, 2011 23:43:28 GMT
Listing doesn't 'pickle' a station and EH are well aware that we run a railway and so it doesn't stop change. When you think, Southgate was totally modernised including replacing most of the tiles and it was upgraded last year, not downgraded as would have happened a few years ago. Yes, it means going through a 'process' but hey, that is a fact of life. TBH, in most cases, LU had already made the decision to keep certain stations in their original style - most stations are grouped into certain architectural or historic categories by management - so Listing is in line with what LU would do anyhow. Re; how passengers react, well, listed or not LU are on a hiding to nothing if they allow slow build up of clutter etc - silly things such as ill-thought out cables and equipment - as it does give a sense of 'couldn't care less'. I for one don't want to go back to the shabbiness of decades ago. Passengers do react better to well-kept station environments - its the company's brand at stake and that does matter. You don't see a shabby Pret A Manger or M&S. I do agree that LUL and LT before it were their own worst enemies when it came to clutter. having vending machines on platforms and shop units selling food and cigarettes contributed to the mountains of rubbish sucked into the tunnels and trapped in suicide pits. I have always thought that consumption of food and drink on the network should be outlawed but particularly since the Kings Cross fire and the removal of station litter bins as a result of the terrorist threat. Believe me, although I have always seen myself as a 'company man' the Corporate LUL image is a tarnished one in my view! Having worked on station mods during the 1980s I will say that what might be aesthetically pleasing to the odd enthusiast was often quite impractical for engineering purposes, simple things like cubby holes for telephones being too small, the placement of signage obscuring train describers and the like. I understand that some decluttering has taken place since I retired, IMO there would be nothing better than nice clean and clear uncluttered platforms! |
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