Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 1:30:36 GMT
THIS THREAD about the MDR's decision to build a station in mid-1880s Whitechapel stoked an interesting thought in my head - are there other stations in Greater London that are/were located in historically "rough" areas where you wouldn't have expected a station to be built? The only historical station that comes to mind is King's Cross Met - ISTR reading once that it was built in a less than salubrious part of Clerkenwell.
|
|
|
Post by abe on Jul 20, 2011 8:02:28 GMT
York Road, on the GNP&BR, was built in an area that was very poor and deprived, and as a result the traffic for the station was always low. This contributed to its closure in 1932. Of course, it is only in recent years that plans have been made to rejuvenate the area north of King's Cross.
|
|
slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,480
|
Post by slugabed on Jul 20, 2011 8:24:26 GMT
I always thought Bethnal Green fell into this category.I suspect (with no evidence to back this up) that the tube station was intended as part of a more general slum clearance/infrastructure improvement to "open up" the East End.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 8:45:27 GMT
Finsbury Park used to have a very bad rep when I was on stations as did Brixton.
Canning Town saw a number of assaults on staff when it first opened in 1999 and as H&S Rep for the Group I spent a fair few hours investigating incidents. For a while we stopped single working on the barrier, SAs had to be in twos or not at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 9:01:42 GMT
I always thought Bethnal Green fell into this category.I suspect (with no evidence to back this up) that the tube station was intended as part of a more general slum clearance/infrastructure improvement to "open up" the East End. The Central Line extension was announced in 1935, the station was completed before the war and used as an air raid shelter before opening for traffic in 1946. While the Housing Act of 1930 encouraged councils to clear slums within their boundaries it wasn’t until the Act of 1936 allowed designated “redevelopment areas” that slum clearance became widespread. All the evidence I can find suggests that large scale redevelopment didn’t happen in Bethnal Green until after the war when over 2,000 houses were destroyed or made uninhabitable and a further 20,000 houses were damaged.
|
|
|
Post by phillw48 on Jul 20, 2011 9:48:09 GMT
The fortunes of an area fluctuate over time, and sometimes over a very short period of time. For example when investigating my family tree I found one of my Victorian ancestors living in a large house and employing a few servants. The house was in the Hoxton/Dalston area of London in what was then a very salubrious area. However by the 1950's the area was run down and the house was used as bed-sits eventually being demolished as slum clearance about 1965 and replaced by a block of council flats. Today house prices in the area are astronomical especially for the large Victorian houses that remain.
|
|
slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,480
|
Post by slugabed on Jul 20, 2011 9:57:06 GMT
Small world! My (maternal) grandparents were both born in the Culford Rd/De Beauvoir area in the 1900s...they insisted they were poor but,as you say,the area is astronomically expensive now,and the houses they lived in,if they had both survived demolition,would have been worth millions.At the time,though,they belonged to Lord Benyon and were rented accomodation. The whole area South of Downham Rd (the Benyon estate) was cleared and another sort of estate is now on the site. This pattern has been repeated all over Inner London.....however in my own lifetime,I have seen once squeaky-clean outer suburbs become shabby and down-at-heel,the houses in multi-occupation.
|
|
|
Post by phillw48 on Jul 20, 2011 10:18:30 GMT
The ancestor concerned was my G-G-Grandfather who actually lived on the north side of De Beauvoir Square itself. In the 1881 census he is described as a Tea Merchant.
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Jul 20, 2011 10:25:51 GMT
London is an ever changing place, my grandfather was born and brought up in Clerkenwell which was definitely a poor area before WW1. In my lifetime I have seen Tottenham and Edmonton go from nice areas to very run down. In my career with LT/LU I would say the dodgiest places at night were Brixton and Ladboke Grove and West Ham both day and night. I recall the cleaner used to open up at night to let me in when I was working there while the station supervisor hid somewhere, in fact I never saw the supervisor, apparently the ticket office had been broken into more than once. Of course when I began my LT career London was for the most part a dead city after 2300 until around 0530 when the early morning rush began with office cleaners going to work. Before I retired much of London had become 24/7. Greater London is just a sprawl now, there are no really nice areas any more, it is all much of a muchness brought down to a lower standard than I recall as a young adult.
|
|
SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
|
Post by SE13 on Jul 20, 2011 17:00:11 GMT
The East of any City is generally regarded as the poorer areas, something to do with prevailing winds IIRC, so I'd guess anything out in the East end would have been "dodgy" at one time or another. I never went out East (still don't) unless football ever took me there, anything beyond Liverpool Street was strictly off limits.
Whitechapel as mentioned for the time was allegedly a red light area with it's fair share of run down slums, but that can't have been the only area, although the supposedly rich West must have had their fair share of "dodgy" areas too.
Thing is, where I lived in Lewisham was an ok area, but if you mention Lewisham, people always take a step back, so I suspect some places have been tarred over the years. And if you think about it, most of the docklands was completely run down in the 70's and 80's - Look at it now! Battersea always had a bad reputation when I was younger, now Brixton carries the can for South London.
To the OP, I'd suggest Leytonstone, Stratford and Bethnal Green, and latterly Seven Sisters and Walthamstow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 17:54:40 GMT
Interesting thread away from the usual rolling stock and service issues.
When I first came to London in 1979 I was advised not to go anywhere in the East ....areas like Ladbroke Grove felt a lot sketchier than today (though l suspect "crime" is less directly obvious to the visitor) - South London was another area.
Gentrification has really crept in , transforming may areas - but my days looking after operations on the North London line , and the Watford - Euston line (amongst others) - saw Stonebridge Park - Harlesden as well dodgy , followed by anywhere east of Highbury on the NLL.
One Friday evening we did a "zero tolerance" campaign on the DC line for ticket checking , and fearing the worst , set off with a mission - it was actually OK , as most of the checked passengers were glad to see some staff around , and with a few exceptions (dealt with firmly - but fairly) - it was an OK evening (s) - repeated several times.
Queens Park used to be a fairly non descript area with few decent eating places , - sort of place where as the area declined , multi occupation set in and standards fell - just a greasy chip shop there in the early 80's , - now a trendy area with lots of nice eating places. I suspect even Harlesden has come up in the world - the NLL certainly has.
Worst trains - the 2337 Watford - Euston (only for the brave) , and the 2345 North Woolwich to Stratford (in my day)
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 20, 2011 19:11:32 GMT
The East of any City is generally regarded as the poorer areas, something to do with prevailing winds IIRC, . Prevailing winds was part of it, but the main factor was the direction the river flows. This not only determined where the docks and associated industry were located, but also the waterworks - extraction and purification upriver at Sunbury, sewage treatment downriver at Crossness.
|
|
|
Post by londonstuff on Jul 20, 2011 20:05:33 GMT
In the 1800s, the area near Parliament was one of the roughest places in England and MPs leaving in the evening only ever used to go home in twos or threes. Nowadays the area surrounding parliament, St John Smith Square, Lord North Street, etc. are worth millions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2011 2:10:59 GMT
To the OP, I'd suggest Leytonstone, Stratford and Bethnal Green, and latterly Seven Sisters and Walthamstow. Fascinating. I had thought that Leytonstone was a fairly nice place when the ECR built its Loughton branch in the 1850s. What would have caused it to decline?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2011 3:26:29 GMT
I grew up in Dagenham, moved to Barking, spent time in Ilford, a couple of forays to White City and Elephant & Castle before coming back east and landing up in Leyton where I’ve been since 1991. Leytonstone is reasonably quiet, Stratford is ok, Walthamstow, are you serious? You’ve never been to the Village, not cheap.
Actually Chingford is probably the dodgiest place, a friend of mine lived in Highams Park perfectly peacefully, moved up to the top end of Sewardstone Road, the border with Hertfordshire was literally at the end of her road, and she was burgled three times in six months. She’s back in Highams Park.
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Jul 21, 2011 6:26:45 GMT
In the 1800s, the area near Parliament was one of the roughest places in England and MPs leaving in the evening only ever used to go home in twos or threes. Nowadays the area surrounding parliament, St John Smith Square, Lord North Street, etc. are worth millions. That's hardly surprising, the area has it's own personal 24/7 police presence which I have always thought disproportionate and unfair when considering response times in the wee small hours in North London, the closed at night or manned only by civilian police stations etc.
|
|
|
Post by railtechnician on Jul 21, 2011 6:57:36 GMT
The East of any City is generally regarded as the poorer areas, something to do with prevailing winds IIRC, so I'd guess anything out in the East end would have been "dodgy" at one time or another. I never went out East (still don't) unless football ever took me there, anything beyond Liverpool Street was strictly off limits. Whitechapel as mentioned for the time was allegedly a red light area with it's fair share of run down slums, but that can't have been the only area, although the supposedly rich West must have had their fair share of "dodgy" areas too. Thing is, where I lived in Lewisham was an ok area, but if you mention Lewisham, people always take a step back, so I suspect some places have been tarred over the years. And if you think about it, most of the docklands was completely run down in the 70's and 80's - Look at it now! Battersea always had a bad reputation when I was younger, now Brixton carries the can for South London. To the OP, I'd suggest Leytonstone, Stratford and Bethnal Green, and latterly Seven Sisters and Walthamstow. I worked out of Whitechapel depot from 1977-1979 and I didn't think it too bad an area then, King's Cross was far worse I felt, although walking through the alley to the station entrance from the road behind the depot where we used to park our cars always looked to be a good mugging spot and I used to carry my lit torch. At the time that whole area was quite run down and the houses in the side streets looked like slums to me, they seemed to be empty but I don't know, the area was always dimly lit. The winos used to hang around the street entrance to the signal store hoping to get at the meths we used to light our Tilley lamps and on Friday nights when they always seemed to have booze and arguments they would occasionally lob full quart cider bottles over the wall exploding on the station platform below. We used to book on early and then nip around to the pub for a quick pint or two before our 2300 start, the Grave Maurice, Rodney's Head and London Hospital Tavern all being nearby but the inspectors used to have a jar in the Grave Maurice, the Rodney's Head was quiet and the LH Tavern busy and pricey so we'd often go up the road to the Old Red Lion which did a nice line in real ales and occasionally we'd bring back a few pint bottles of Sam Smith to drink on the job especially in the summer when working in the platform inverts. It was a dodgy area then but I think it was much worse in the 1980s when I used to visit a workmate at Stepney Green and sometimes stay overnight after a Friday night in the West End. Then we'd visit the pie and mash shop in Roman Road for Saturday lunch and nip along to a pub in the Mile End road. My mate was an east end boy and grew up with the Kray's and he knew some very dodgy people, living in such a place didn't seem to bother him and when he moved in with a girlfirend on the estate behind Bromley-by-Bow station I saw an even more dodgy area. I used to stay for a night sometimes but I was always afraid my car would be gone in the morning. My opinion of places changed over the years, in the 1970s In thought Finsbury Park very dodgy but in the 1980s I socialised there in Blackstock Road and elsewhere in Holloway road, Camden Town etc in clubs and restaurants on a weekly basis as well as Euston and the West End and would often end up in someone's flat in the wee small hours in some other part of London. I woke up in some very seedy areas at times and was glad to get back to north London. Strangely, overall when I look back perhaps I was simply young and naive because I was not as bothered at the time as I became subsequently!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2011 7:19:41 GMT
The Maurice is a betting shop, The Black Bull is a curry house, both the Old Red Lion and The Lord Rodney are shoe shops, the Blind Beggar is full of tourists, the White Hart/Murphy’s is still there and the LHT was still overpriced the last time I set foot in there but now is called the Urban Bar with the outside painted in black and orange tiger stripes.
|
|
|
Post by Bighat on Jul 21, 2011 8:02:39 GMT
The Maurice is a betting shop, The Black Bull is a curry house, both the Old Red Lion and The Lord Rodney are shoe shops, the Blind Beggar is full of tourists, the White Hart/Murphy’s is still there and the LHT was still overpriced the last time I set foot in there but now is called the Urban Bar with the outside painted in black and orange tiger stripes. Don't you mean the 'Grave' Maurice? I too have imbibed in most of those hostelries in their earlier, some would say, sleezier, days, but I think the area was a better, safer, place then than it is now!
|
|
|
Post by 21146 on Jul 21, 2011 11:24:53 GMT
The Maurice is a betting shop, The Black Bull is a curry house, both the Old Red Lion and The Lord Rodney are shoe shops, the Blind Beggar is full of tourists, the White Hart/Murphy’s is still there and the LHT was still overpriced the last time I set foot in there but now is called the Urban Bar with the outside painted in black and orange tiger stripes. Don't you mean the 'Grave' Maurice? I too have imbibed in most of those hostelries in their earlier, some would say, sleezier, days, but I think the area was a better, safer, place then than it is now! The Grave Maurice was actually quite up-market in the 1980s when run by Alan Rose and his wife. It was also the "alternative messroom" for Whitechapel station staff (all safely retired now I should add).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2011 14:55:23 GMT
Interesting thread here King's Cross was far worse I felt, although walking through the alley to the station entrance from the road behind the depot where we used to park our cars always looked to be a good mugging spot and I used to carry my lit torch. A relative used to live in KX in the 1980's and from what Ive been told, the Cally Road was pretty much a no go area back then. I have always felt a particularly nasty vibe on Holloway Road, particularly the lower part too. Dunno why. Stonebridge Park is another one aswell as Harlesden, I dont know what its like today but certainly in the late 90's/early 2000's it was a pretty dangerous place, includng the infamous stonebridge housing estate which has been completely transformed now.
|
|