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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 13:25:37 GMT
I didn't think it would ever happen, but a step has been taken towards resignalling the SSR... TfL Press ReleaseDoes Bombardier winning the signalling imply the same system as on the Victoria Line? Or could they still plump for Seltrac? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 18:31:49 GMT
Good news. Now all we need is a road-map for final delivery.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 18:36:13 GMT
I'd imagine that means DTG for signalling now, yes. Also good that it's the train manufacturer delivering the signalling; means easier interface to systems!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 18:49:38 GMT
Does anyone but Bombardier win anything? Transport for London is the backbone of the Derbyshire economy.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 12, 2011 19:47:15 GMT
Also good that it's the train manufacturer delivering the signalling; means easier interface to systems! You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? Jury's out over here, I'm afraid. Completely separate parts of a huge jagganath these days, to all intents and purposes they might as well be separate firms. |
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 12, 2011 22:20:05 GMT
The Bombardier system will be a version of their "Cityflo 650" product. It's been put in on a line in Madrid and was developed from their airport people-mover system. It's on the Gatwick and Heathrow systems amongst others. Madrid was simple compared with what LU will be like. The Spanish are much more laid back about this kind of thing so you can expect it to be very difficult here.
This also means LU will get three different ATP systems, two of them working on the same railway. Now, who's going to give me odds that the Piccadilly Line resignalling will have a fourth system, just to be sure that we don't have any standardisation.
What's really funny about all this is that, back in the days when they were setting up the original PPP proposals in 2000, Adtranz (Bombardier's predecessor), dropped their own signalling company in favour of Westinghouse because they though Westinghouse would be LU's preferred option. Looks like the empire strikes back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 6:43:22 GMT
This also means LU will get three different ATP systems, two of them working on the same railway. Now, who's going to give me odds that the Piccadilly Line resignalling will have a fourth system, just to be sure that we don't have any standardisation. Since the Pic is the only non-SSR line that shares tracks with SSR lines, surely this would mean the Pic would eventually receive the same signalling. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 7:32:36 GMT
I would guess there may be a few people on gardening leave at Westinghouse now?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 8:50:12 GMT
I would guess there may be a few people on gardening leave at Westinghouse now?
Does seem likely - unless they've got some serious Crossrail work lined up that we don't know about.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Apr 14, 2011 18:40:17 GMT
Surely the tube already has 3 ATP systems; central, jub and vic?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2011 3:53:33 GMT
Surely the tube already has 3 ATP systems; central, jub and vic? So why not have 4? Different train control systems can interface, this has been done in Hong Kong. |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 18, 2011 18:14:04 GMT
I would guess there may be a few people on gardening leave at Westinghouse now? Does seem likely - unless they've got some serious Crossrail work lined up that we don't know about. They have the Thameslink contract which is 6 Westlock interlockings. AIUI the ATO part of TL has not been let yet - its still being schemed out (as was disicussed in last weeks Tech.Soc. meeting) but they would seem to be in pole position. PS ''they'' are called Invensys Rail these days. -- Nick |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 18, 2011 18:18:38 GMT
This also means LU will get three different ATP systems, two of them working on the same railway. Now, who's going to give me odds that the Piccadilly Line resignalling will have a fourth system, just to be sure that we don't have any standardisation. Since the Pic is the only non-SSR line that shares tracks with SSR lines, surely this would mean the Pic would eventually receive the same signalling. I suggest there would be a certain amount of logic in making the Picc the same systems as SSR, and, to compensate depending on what exactly has been contracted to date, make the Bakerloo, over time, Seltrac TBTC. Whatever the Bakerloo does go it will have to interface to the totally different NR-mainline scenario, but not to other tube lines, so it dont really matter which ATO it gets. You never know, there might even be found room in NSCC to house a Bakerloo service control  -- Nick |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 18, 2011 22:07:53 GMT
''they'' are called Invensys Rail these days. Hmmm, that depends on who you associate with. My team tend to use a variety of variations on the old name, not all of which are repeatable. Interestingly, I have in front of me a drawing badged as Invensys with the byline "A subsidary of Westinghouse Brake and Signal Holdings Limited", and the original issue dated March 2011...  |
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Post by d7666 on Apr 20, 2011 14:11:34 GMT
''they'' are called Invensys Rail these days. Hmmm, that depends on who you associate with. My team tend to use a variety of variations on the old name, not all of which are repeatable. Interestingly, I have in front of me a drawing badged as Invensys with the byline "A subsidary of Westinghouse Brake and Signal Holdings Limited", and the original issue dated March 2011... Well OK yes the old name is still much in common use here and everywhere. But likewise if I referred in here to S-stock built by British Railways Workshops at Derby Litchurch Lane I would expect some feedback. -- Nick |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 19:40:13 GMT
As I understand, the system is moving block, and Picc Line trains will be fitted with the Bombardier equipment (otherwise the system cannot know where the Picc Line Trains are on the shared sections).
Since the Picc is coming up for due new trains, I would imagine they will do both trains and signalling at the same time as per Vic line.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2011 19:46:48 GMT
As I understand, the system is moving block, and Picc Line trains will be fitted with the Bombardier equipment (otherwise the system cannot know where the Picc Line Trains are on the shared sections). Since the Picc is coming up for due new trains, I would imagine they will do both trains and signalling at the same time as per Vic line. Current plan is to retrofit 73TS I believe and then later to commission a new fleet. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 21:45:11 GMT
The Bombardier system will be a version of their "Cityflo 650" product. It's been put in on a line in Madrid and was developed from their airport people-mover system. I've had a quick look at Cityflo 650 and it seems that it's basically Bombardier's equivalent of TBTC? It also seems to have the potential for full driverless operation. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on May 21, 2011 16:04:09 GMT
I've had a quick look at Cityflo 650 and it seems that it's basically Bombardier's equivalent of TBTC? It also seems to have the potential for full driverless operation. Not in the lifetime of 'S' stock. |
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Post by tubeprune on May 21, 2011 16:44:13 GMT
The Cityflo 650 architecture seems to be a lot like Seltrac S40 (Jubilee) but without the wiring on the track.
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 14, 2011 12:04:21 GMT
TfL press release this morning confirms Bombardier Cityflo 650 will be the new SSL signalling system. They say, "Bombardier said the contract covers 310 track-km, 113 stations, the 191 S-Stock trainsets it is supplying, 49 engineering trains and six heritage trains." Engineering trains? 49 of them? Has LU got 49 engineering trains? Heritage trains too! Six of them? I suspect they mean six cabs. Anyone know what all these are? Then, "Installation will be completed by 2018, with a two-year warranty period. TfL said Bombardier is 'committed to installing and testing the new signalling system without any need for weekend closures', although there will be closures for track and platform works." Well, it's taken six years just to do the Jubilee Line..... They go on, "TfL says the overall SSL upgrade programme will increase capacity on the District Line by 24% to 50 000 passengers/h, on the Metropolitan Line by 27% to 44 500 passengers/h and on the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines by 65% to 43 500 passengers/h. " This is just nonsense. The official capacity for a 7-car S Stock is 1194 seated and standing at 7/m^2. On the District, to get 50,000 pax/hr you would need 42 trains per hour. Oh, sorry, they mean in both directions - OK, that'd be 21 tph...errr   I wish the LU press office would find someone who knows what they're talking about before they publish such rubbish. It just gets the business a bad name. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 14, 2011 12:36:33 GMT
6 heritage trains is an interesting number. If it is cabs, as you suggest TP, does that include the cabs of the 4TC set aswell? If so then its just Sarah, the 4TC and the 38. What about the 20s?
And what of the units that in time are assumed to be restored again? The Q, the standard; what of the Cravens units, will they be included with CHT paying for their bit? And what of the A stock unit plans?
FOI request, perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 21:03:48 GMT
Maybe one of the planned units is an A stock for preservation  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 21:24:53 GMT
Well 6 Heritage trains:
Sarah Siddons
10012
Possible Q stock
CHT 1960ts
A60/62
Thats the only 5 I can think of
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Post by 100andthirty on Jun 14, 2011 21:31:22 GMT
They go on, "TfL says the overall SSL upgrade programme will increase capacity on the District Line by 24% to 50 000 passengers/h, on the Metropolitan Line by 27% to 44 500 passengers/h and on the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines by 65% to 43 500 passengers/h. " This is just nonsense. The official capacity for a 7-car S Stock is 1194 seated and standing at 7/m^2. On the District, to get 50,000 pax/hr you would need 42 trains per hour. Oh, sorry, they mean in both directions - OK, that'd be 21 tph...errr quote] whilst the 7 passengers/sq m is the absolute maximum capacity, usually the "maximum observed" capacity of 5 passengers/sq m is used. These capacith figures press releases are not meant to be taken too literally!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 23:07:52 GMT
Well 6 Heritage trains: Sarah Siddons 10012 Possible Q stock CHT 1960ts A60/62 Thats the only 5 I can think of The 4-TC will also need the ATP bits as well so that Sarah doesn't have to run round every time and can be worked in push-pull mode. That makes six, IMO. I do hope that a set of equipment is reserved for the Q stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 14:45:16 GMT
There you go then, thats 6
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 15, 2011 17:42:29 GMT
Thats speculation  Cravens have two trains remember, then theres also LT museums standard stock project. You could argue that Sarah and the 4TC is one train aswell |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 19:35:22 GMT
This also means LU will get three different ATP systems, two of them working on the same railway. Now, who's going to give me odds that the Piccadilly Line resignalling will have a fourth system, just to be sure that we don't have any standardisation. Since the Pic is the only non-SSR line that shares tracks with SSR lines, surely this would mean the Pic would eventually receive the same signalling. Looks like the Control System will be similar to the Waterloo and City Line EBI system. |
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